Ansigisel of Metz, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia - Sources?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Monday, June 25, 2018
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It also depends on who speaks latin then. For example, words translated from hebraic language into greek were mis-translated again from Greek to Latin.

Find an italian and a french in medival latin and latin will be different.
From one region to another in france, latin will vary too, and often include words made from local language and regional latin.

When I was researching on the Conqueror, I found two sorts of Latin. It was exhausting.

7/1/2018 at 8:06 AM

'he made up words' :-) :-)

7/1/2018 at 8:06 AM

Anne -- LOL. Reading the stuff. That's the way of it.

Here, I always thought it was my own temperamental idiosyncrasy. The coursework I did made me nuts. Don't try to teach me medieval history. Modernist and post-modernist exegesis is all well and fine, but it loses its allure after you know the basics. Let me sit with the texts, struggle with them, and write about them, then tell me what I'm doing wrong ;)

de F BLATT - ‎1958

de F BLATT - ‎1958

If we want to follow the destinies of the Latin language in the Middle
Age, we can focus on either the external appearance or the appearance
internal evolution. The question of geographical extension
social and medieval Latin, men who practiced it, in short
of his outer life, has been discussed several times lately.
We will therefore focus here on a broad outline of its evolution
It is mainly about describing, locating and explaining
the many transformations undergone by Latin since the end
of Antiquity, the specific characters that distinguish
the medieval Latin of classical and post-classical Latin, and,
if possible, to unite the unity of diversity. Progress
realized for 50 years in the study of Low-Latin should allow
to define quite exactly what we consider
as typically medieval Latin.
This typically medieval Latin emerges essentially
three elements: first, the influence of national languages, a factor
new acting in various directions; then, next to
the influence of the various idioms, the medieval Latin felt equal -
new conditions of existence, for example the evolution of
of the society ; Finally, we must take into account the formatio n
of a vast scholarly language whose action is nevertheless sensitive
outside purely scientific writings.

Regarding the first factor, each country offers the
same field to study specifically national traits. he
It is normal for me to focus especially here on the student
from the Latin of the Nordic countries. Our oldest texts go back
in the eleventh century; these are charters published in the series
Diplomatarium Danicum, Diplomatarium Suecanum and Diplom-
tarium Norvagicum. For literary texts, see M. Cl. Gertz,
Vitae Sanctorum Danorum and Scriptores minores, Langebek,
Script. rer. Dan., Storm, Monumenta historiae Norvagicae,
Ericus Olai Script. Suec. However, I specify that the traits
will be identical or almost identical with respect to other countries.
Our task is twofold: on the one hand, to distinguish
particular regional phenomena of common medieval Latin,
on the other hand to study the semantic domains where
more clearly the different local characteristics.

It is in the cases where Latin borrowed from the languages
that the influence of these is the most sensitive. He is coming
that we find borrowing from Germanic and Celtic since ancient times,
but unlike borrowings from Greek they are not
dispersed and remained without any noticeable effect on the structure of the
language . On the other hand medieval Latin, as we know it -
sounds by charters, laws and literature, is full of borrowings
new facts to these languages. In the medieval texts
of Scandinavian origin is for example the word scotacio
(scoto, rescoto), that Andreas Sunesen in his Latin paraphrase of
the former regional law of Skåne explains: "The seller
put some soil on the buyer's lap and this laugh
solemn can be called with reason scotacio by employing a mo t
from the vulgar tongue (Lex Scaniae 4, 13) ". But we find
also all the forms since scoting, pure and simple loan,
until scotatio. It would be difficult to find outside sources
Scandinavian free peasants designated by bondones (= rustici;
substrate the Nordic word bonde). We can sometimes fix the area
a word of the limits even narrower: it would be difficult to find
outside the eastern linguistic zone of the Scandinavian countries,
or influenced by this region, the Latinized word FORTA to
designate common lands for a whole village.

So each country has printed its own character in the Latin of
Middle Ages. We find for example in original texts
German the words scario (Scherge), knapo (Knapp); it probably is
on a French-speaking land that the word prisonium
- also attested in Northern Europe - has penetrated
in medieval Latin. In the chronicle of Salerno we find
erabamus (eravamo) as imperfect sum, and gradiebatur
for filacebat (gradisce). England has provided the important word
baco, while zabellus and zibellinus must be attributed to
the Slavic influence. We see the national element appear not alone -
in Indo-European speaking countries: in Hungary, which has
enjoyed in the Middle Ages a fairly pure Latin, phenomenon due to
fact that the structure of Hungarian is not Indo-European and
therefore the possibilities of mutual influences
were limited. We still find Hungarian loans.
The courtiers are called ud (v) ornici, a judge birous (de biro).
Let us note to finish the many medieval borrowing from Greek, em -
prunts unknown to classical and post-classical Latin: dulia,
emologo, elenchus, elenchice, epiikia, latria, homonimus, ledon,
loidoria, soma, tafium, talus, etc. . . We can also see
everywhere hybrid formations, mixtures of Latin elements and
indigenous: we find eg. burgiloquium next to civiloquium
to make the Middle-German way bûrsprake, and campim

Etcetc, what I was trying to say. Much more in it.

de F BLATT - ‎1958

7/1/2018 at 8:29 AM

Justin Durand indeed.

But I did have an extraordinarily useful class; that was the one on paleography. Latin texts, French texts, English texts up through Elizabethan shorthand. That’s where I learned the basics. I loved it!

And then spent 25 years or so reading and transcribing excerpts from hundreds and hundreds of church court documents, abbey account rolls, private journals, churchwardens accounts, on and on. Medieval Latin, French, Italian, Modern and Middle English for the most part.

At any rate. I have not used De Planctu Naturae since I left that classroom. But Medieval Paleography was a very useful class.

Yep. That class actually gave me a skill.

Private User
7/1/2018 at 8:31 AM

Disculpe que me le fui
pa´un lado, que ni yo pensaba.
Todo comienza y se acaba
o mejor dicho se alarga,
y así se estiba una carga
que a veces ni se soñaba.
Jose Larralde Poeta Argentino Poema criollo (Herencia para un hijo Gaucho)

Private User
7/1/2018 at 8:36 AM

All I see is two curators making fun of us all, but the main problem is left untouched, some curator/s act on their own, cutting tree profiles, renaming their father to N.N. or just Unknown, then locking the profiles. Evidence?

Where is the thread discussions before acting regarding those profiles below?

Examples, (there exist too many profiles like these on Geni to show them all).
Ansbert of Moselle
Unknown Father of Arnoul
Mummolin, Mayor of the Palace of Neustria

Ulf, are you saying this is deliberate, to profit someone, or someones ?

7/1/2018 at 9:21 AM

Ulf, I don't see the point of a discussion before cutting when the evidence is clear. A discussion afterwards, yes. It might be necessary to explain the evidence if someone is confused about it.

You are arguing in favor of making and preserving speculative connections. That's a non-starter on Geni.

Making fun of you? Not at all. We are giving you a chance to learn about the problems of medieval genealogy.

Private User
7/1/2018 at 9:42 AM

Yes, some people are trying their best to cover up our history by taking any chance given to dissolve the lines, they call it a clean up... The main reason seems to be the claim that the sources are not valid, the end result always ends up with a profile with unknown parents, sometimes even the line down to known child/ren are cut also, making the profile into an island, often locked. .

I recently demonstrated that the value of oral tradition has been underestimated when it comes to the Swedish older regents line, (often misinterpreted as fictional, or fairy tales kings, which is a senseless translation, as the term saga, in Swedish should be translated to family history, chronicle, not fairy tale, despite the fact that some of them are more or less only known in legends, some others are found in other contemporary sources,making them more reliable) and that the thing they call "not contemporary" sources was in fact was an unbroken chain of oral tradition between the 1000-1200 centuries before it was written down.

Ca. 200 year after this,in the 1600's, a slightly modified list of the kings was presented, with some alterations made in the line, but the first one, the oldest, is the correct one. The tree represented on Geni reflected that older line.

With no discussion at all, the same joker/s cut the line, created an unknown father, and put a little footnote in the profile, unknown origin or some shit like that, total vandalism!

There was a great value in preserving those lines, compared to the non existing value of dismantling it into nothing but shit and rubbish.

7/1/2018 at 9:51 AM

It's pointless to feed this trolling behaviour that always devolves into insults when Ulf doesn't get his own way.
Start discussions from specific profiles about specific sources and remain civil.

7/1/2018 at 9:54 AM

Ulf, it seems you do not appreciate the difference between opinion and evidence.

You have many opinions about the way things should be, but you are short on evidence to back it up. You like things that "could have been" without noticing whether there are other alternatives -- including the all-important "there is no way to be sure based on the surviving evidence".

Showing that the value of oral tradition has been underestimated is not the same thing as proving that an oral tradition is right. Experts nowadays largely agree that oral tradition is an important element for understanding traditions that have been garbled, but they also take the next steps (which you do not) and also agree that (a) many oral traditions have been distorted or manipulated, and (b) oral traditions deteriorate dramatically as soon as they are exposed to a written culture.

It seems what you do not like is Geni and the whole idea that genealogy must be based in evidence accepted by experts in the field.

7/1/2018 at 9:56 AM

Sharon, cross-posted. Yes, I think you are right.

Private User
7/1/2018 at 11:01 AM

Cain .

Cain . is your first cousin 71 times removed's ex-partner's second cousin's husband's 12th great

Logica pura, este perfil es real?
Ansigisel de Metz , podríamos pensar que con todo lo que hay respecto a sus progenitores puede ser valedero

7/1/2018 at 11:24 AM

Could be, I suppose, but I don't know anyone who believes it. Our goal is to disconnect these mythical pieces from the main tree but leave them on Geni for people who are interested. The biggest problem is that people keep trying to force the connections on everyone else.

Private User
7/1/2018 at 11:28 AM

I'm trying to tell you that Geni have some unfit curator's pretending to know it all, when they in fact don't know anything at all and are strongly biased no matter what proof we present, is that trolling? As stated, you do hold each others back, join forces to mock evry single one who don't agree with your opinion, that you know best, and as stated,it always ends in something like,if this site don't fit you, leave, and when you see that the person continues, you simple block him or her out. Act as adult at least and why not, try to act civil yourselves.

Private User
7/1/2018 at 11:53 AM

Entonces en GENI cuando termina lo real y comienza lo ficticio?

7/1/2018 at 11:57 AM

Juan Carlos, that's where we want to cut. If you find a place like that, let us know. The curators are always happy to take a look at the evidence and figure out whether the connection is good or bad or requires a discussion.

Ansegisel de Metz is Raúl Castro Chacón, Capitán de Navio's 34th great grandfather!
Raúl Castro Chacón, Capitán de Navio
Tú → Raúl Castro Puga
your father → Aurora Puga del Valle
his mother → Raimundo Puga Puga
her father → José María Puga Sepúlveda
his father → José de Puga y Figueroa
his father → José de Puga Girón
his father → Manuela Giron Girón de Montenegro Esparza Jofré
his mother → Juan Girón de Montenegro Santibáñez
her father → Felipe Girón de Montenegro y Jofré de Loayza
his father → Luciana Jofré de Loayza Ortíz de Gaete
his mother → Luis Jufré de Loayza Meneses Aguirre
her father → Juan Jofré (Jufré) y Montesa, conquistador de Chile y Argentina
his father → Francisco Jufré y Niño de Guevara
his father → Constanza Niño de Guevara
his mother → Constanza Vélez de Guevara Fernández de Ayala
her mother → Beltrán Vélez de Guevara, Señor de Guevara, Oñate y Leniz
her father → Sancha Ponce y Haro
his mother → Guiomar Ponce de Cabrera
her mother → Juan Ponce de Cabrera, señor de Cabra y Torre de Pajares
her father → Toda Roldán de Alagón
his mother → Roldán Arias de Alagón
her father → María de Pallars Sobirá
his mother → Lucie de la Marche
her mother → Bernard I, comte de la Marche
her father → Audebert I, comte de la Marche
his father → Emma de Périgord
his mother → Guillaume I, count of Périgord
her father → Wulgrin, count of Angoulême
his father → Susanna
his mother → Alpaïs de Paris, Abbesse de St-Pierre de Reims
her mother → Louis I, The Pious
her father → Charlemagne
his father → Pépin III, King of the Franks
his father → Charles Martel "the Hammer"
his father → Pépin ll "the Fat" d'Héristal, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia
his father → Ansegisel de Metz
his father

7/21/2018 at 8:49 AM

pict1682.jpg [91x193] St. Armulf, Bishop of Metz

Bishop of Metz ?-641
Arnulf was a powerful Austrasian noble during the time of Mayor Pepin I, and their two children Ansegisel and Begga were married. According to Frankish myth, Arnulf was the son of Bodigisel, a supposed son of Saint Gendolphus, Bishop of Tongress, and Oda de Savoy. This bishop was an actual historical figure, the son of Arthemia and Munderic of Vitry. According again to the myths, Munderic was the son of Cloderic the Paricide, son of the historic Sigisbert the Lame. This Sigisbert was the son of King Childebert of Cologne, another historical figure that died sometime shortly after 450. He was the suposed son of one Clovis the Riparian who died after 420.
Saint Arnulf of Metz

Died 640. Arnulf was a courtier of the Austrasian King Theodebert II, a valiant warrior, and a valued adviser. He married the noble Doda (the marriage of his son Ansegisel to Begga, daughter of Blessed Pepin of Landen, produced the Carolingian line of kings of France).
Arnulf desired to become a monk at Lérins. However, when his wife took the veil and Arnulf was at the point of entering Lérins, he was appointed bishop of Metz about 610. He played a prominent role in affairs of state, was one of those instrumental in making Clotaire of Neustria king of Austrasia, and was chief counselor to Dagobert, son of King Clotaire, when the king appointed him king of Austrasia.

About 626, Arnulf resigned his see and retired to a hermitage near the abbey of Remiremont Delaney, Encyclopedia).

In art, Saint Arnulf is portrayed as a bishop with a coat of mail under his cope. He may also be shown (1) with a fish having a ring in its mouth; (2) blessing a burning castle; or (3) washing the feet of the poor (Roeder). He is venerated at Remiremont. Like Saint Antony, Arnulf is invoked to find lost articles. He is also the patron saint of music, millers, and brewers (Roeder).
From: Catholic Online

St. Arnulf
d. 640 Feastday: July 18

Bishop and member of the court of the Frankish king Theodebert II of Austrasia, sometimes called Arnuiph or Arnulf of Metz. A noble, Arnulf married Doda, and their son was Ansegisel. Ansegisel married Beggia, the daughter of Pepin of Landen, starting the Carolingian dynasty of France. Doda became a nun, and Arnulf made plans to enter a monastery but was named the bishop of Nletz around 616. He continued his court services, making Clotaire of Neustria the king of Austrasia. He also served as counselor to Dagobert, King Clotaire's son. In 626, Arnulf retired to a hermitage at Remiremont, France.

Private User
7/21/2018 at 10:31 AM
7/22/2018 at 12:25 PM

I just have to add a comment regarding what Jessica have found. In 2014 i wrote the linage of clovis back to Priam on the Profile of Clovis, This was then told by Justin Swansrom that it was just fictional and none of this People where real, a bit like today where the official Geneealogy for the French kings is as Picture at the profile of Clovis, when it comes to the Merovingians, no one seems to care and put out information that is wrong.
I will say thank you Jessica for confirming what I said in 2014 and also to Sharon couse now some of it is correct even though you still put out some fault even when I have said where you can find what's right.

7/22/2018 at 9:49 PM

I think my 24 hours straight in sorting out for you is caring - or you are impossible to please.

Priam? From Homer's Odyssey? Not even having that discussion - it's ridiculous.

7/23/2018 at 8:29 AM

Sharon Doubell, it always comes back to the same problem. How can we teach people that not everything they read is true? Particularly when they want so much to believe.

7/23/2018 at 9:24 AM

I agree but that goes for all the ones that say they have the truth, think about it and refuse everything they don't know themselves. The book that Jessica found is just as likely than all the rest of written material about this time. You refer to what you sqy is truth, no one knows for certaain, just like the bible noone knew about the book of Judas, but it existed. Is it the truth, who knows?

7/23/2018 at 9:41 AM

If we don't know with a reasonable degree of historical certainty - we don't put it on an historical tree. Not Priam; not Judas.

7/23/2018 at 9:47 AM

We're going to some degree of trouble to capture all the literary or semi-mythological etc trees in projects on Geni, now they can be tagged to prevent them being merged into the Word Tree.
If you search projects and can't find a project, it's a great idea to start one for that area yourself: - get a Curator to help you, if you need help with the details of how to do it. Justin and I, and a couple of other Medieval Curators are really fascinated by these trees.

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