The REAL Moytoy https://www.geni.com/people/Moytoy-of-Tellico/6000000004086139262

"Tsual Fox" and his family are mythical. Ostenaco was a real person, father unknown, wife and children unnamed.

Steele's book is mostly a work of junk fiction and was published in the 70's. It may have contributed to some of the garbage on the Internet.

The Uktena crystal story is both plagiarized and misrepresented from Mooney's "History, Myths, and Sacred Formulas of the Cherokees." Mooney was told that if anyone other than the caretaker came near the crystal they would suffer a sudden death and that the person responsible for its' keeping would move it from hiding place to hiding place lest it learn the way out and escape. It would never be shown to anyone, white or Indian.

William Cooper, not Ludovic Grant, was Cuming's guide and interpreter. Here is the exact description of the events in Steele from Cuming's actual published Journal (transcript in William's "Early Travelers in Tennessee Country":):
March 28. He went from Tassetchee, and lay within three Miles of Beaver Damra, being now attended by Ludovick Grant as well as his guide William Cooper....
March 29. They proceeded over the Mountains, drank some of the water on the Top of the high Ooneekawy Mountain, near which was a large tree called the Poison'd Pear; from the Top of this Mountain to great Telliquo is a Descent about 12 miles. They arrived at great Telliquo in the Afternoon, saw the petrifying Cave, a great many Ememies Scalps, brought in and put upon poles at the Warriors Door, made a Friend of the great Moytoy, and Jacob the Conjurer....

March 30 Sir Alexander left William Cooper at great Telliquo to take care of his lame horse, and took only Ludovic Grant along with him to great Tannassy….

“Sakinney”, daughter of Ostenaco Was named as the daughter of Judd’s Friend, who is equated with Ostenaco Outacite "Mankiller" “Judd’s Friend” of Settico, Cherokee Emissary to England I thought ?

Diana Collins I don’t mean to be rude, but I don’t have the time to chase up miscellaneous Carpenters in England, I’m sorry.

I am familiar with the New England Carpenters, they are well documented families. If you have a DNA match to the Alexander of Leyden family, I urge you to trace down that tree. Maybe you’ll turn out to have true Pilgrim blood and cousins in the Netherlands.

Here’s the reference to the daughter

https://books.google.com/books?id=3Ko7LR3TXJIC&lpg=PA460&dq...

A Guide to Cherokee Documents in Foreign Archives By William L. Anderson, James Allen Lewis. Page 460

“Helena Therersa Timberlake was Henry Timberlake’s English wife. He died shortly after their marriage and she never came to America. Timberlake is believed to be the father of a son, Richard, by Ostenaco’s (known as Judd or Judge’s Friend) daughter.

So her name is wrong? Ok, can fix that - I had worked a lot on this line, unrelating myself.

Is this profile more or less corr ct?

Wur-teh Woman of Ani'-wa'di, {Probably fictional}

That’s actually the English wife. Her real name (from the marriage record) was Eleanor Binel. No one knows why the record says “Helena Thersa Timberlake Ostenaco” - shades of Thomas Carpenter - but she never left England or had children. Timberlake refers to her in his diary. Ostenaco’s daughter may have been named ‘Sokinney’ but I think that’s conjectural.

Ref: “on January 27, 1763 Henry Timberlake of St. Martin’s in the Fields, Esq., B[achelor] and Eleanor Binel of this Parish” [St. George’s Hanover, S[pinster], L.A.C. (License from the Archbishop of Canterbury)],
from notes to Duane King edition of The Memoirs of Lt. Henry Timberlake p.157

Diana Collins Also re: your book, it may well be outdated. There has been a great deal of work via Carpenter Cousins, including DNA studies and a professional genealogist on hire. They’ve busted a lot of cherished Carpenter notions from earlier attempts. The Geni trees should be accurate; they hound me if they’re not. :(

Regarding "Wurteh" no, this is bogus.

Doublehead was born in the 1740's. His parents are unknown, but he had at least two sisters and at least two brothers, Old Tassel and Pumpkin Boy.

He had several wives, only two of whom are known by name, Nannie Drumgoole and Kateeyah Wilson.

He had at least nine, and probably eleven children:There are only 9 named children of Doublehead in the records:
Bird, Peggy, Susannah, Alcey, Tassel, Two Heads, William.
Saleechee and another daughter whose name is unknown, wives of George Colbert
Two other probable daughters, :Nigodagayu and Gulustiyu, both married to his business partner Samuel Riley.

Erica and Pam.....THESE are the SAME person.

Oconastota, Uku of Chota, First Beloved Man of the Cherokee

Ostenaco Outacite "Mankiller" “Judd’s Friend” of Settico, Cherokee Emissary to England

Going by dna matches .... trees .... Brewer is blood to me.

IF these are not the same...they have to be connected somehow. Both profiles have a wife listed as "Oo Loo Sta" ...."Ooloosta".

And although both men were clearly married, the names of their wives are completely unknown.

Well....I still say they were connected with each other....

https://www.wvencyclopedia.org/articles/2371

They were both Cherokee, they were both chiefs, they fought together. Oconostota was from Chota, Ostenaco from Tommotley. There is no evidence they were related.

Oconostota and Ostenaco are two totally different men.

Oconostota was a contemporary of Attakullakulla. Nothing is known of his early life. He first appears in historical records in 1736. By 1740 he was the "Great Warrior of Chota" and after the death of Old Hop in 1760 he led the Cherokee along with Attakullakulla. He was a friend of Indian Agent Joseph Martin and spent the last months of his life at Martin's home before returning to the Cherokee Nation to die in the spring of 1783. It is believed that a grave uncovered when the Tellico Reservoir was created was his.

Ostenaco also known as Outacite/Mankiller, and Judd or Judge's Friend, was a Cherokee war chief under Oconostota and Attakullakulla and was probably 10-15 years younger than they were. He led the siege of Fort Loudon. We know a great deal about him because Lt. Henry Timaberlake stayed with him in the Cherokee Nation and then took him to London in 1672. Timberlake is believed to have fathered a child with Ostenaco's daughter.

I am wondering if Ostenaco is the father of Robin my 5th great grandmother married to Rowland Judd.

Hi https://www.geni.com/people/Brenda-O-leta-Farthing-Cooter/600000003...

We had discussed this a few months ago. I’m related to the Rowland Judd family, it turns out.

Rowland William Judd, Sr.

Robin ‘Joyce’ Judd

There are some issues with the idea.

1) documentation
2) geography
3) Names
4) Dates

Rowland Judd was “not” the Judd who was “Judd - friend of Ostenaco” of course. They lived at different times and places.

Ostenaco probably did have more than one daughter, but the one we know about was called something like Sakinny or Jenny, these are names that make sense.

The name Robin actually makes no sense. At this time it was a man’s nickname only as far as I know. In the 20th century it crossed the Gender line to be either ... in England.

Joyce is a nice traditional Welsh name.

No. There is no connection between Ostenaco and Rowland Judd, that’s an Internet myth. Ostenaco had a daughter probably named Sokinney who had a son by Henry Timberlake about 1762. No other known family members or descendants. Rowland Judd was in Pennsylvania in the 1740’s when Ostenaco was a young man. He didn’t arrive in North Carolina until the 1760’s and had no Cherokee connection.

It looks like Timberlake / Ostenaco descent is known

http://www.cherokeephoenix.org/Article/index/4263

Yes, that's an accepted line of descent, documented back to Richard Timberlake's mother. Since Henry Timberlake had no brothers and no other children there's no way to prove he was the father, but it's assumed that he was.

Then there’s something wrong with Lt. Henry Timberlake, Adventurer & Author parentage ...

I will take you word about Moytoy since you are the experts, but as far as name go , I have some kin with very odd names like Fanny, Stawyer. I knew one women in the mountains called Viola.

Fanny is a nickname for Frances (spelled Francis in the old days and used for both men & women). English.

Viola derives from Violetta (many European languages, Violet in English)

https://www.behindthename.com/name/viola

These are not Cherokee names.

Maybe he did have brothers who outlived him. I thought he was the last of his family.

I think you’re onto something, there is something hinky & difficult about the early VA Timberlake tree. Private User And I had struggled with it, maybe gotten it in shape, and it’s looking “off” again.

There’s a Lawson which is how I got involved, and these are the very rich Lawson’s, who are not mine (old Epaphroditis Lawson “who was here first” family); and I don’t have the impression the marvelous Henry came from money, what with his dying in debtors prison and all.

I think this is it.

“Dictionary of the American Biography places his birth date in 1730. His marriage licence places it in 1735. (Entry errs in that Francis and Sarah Austin Timberlake were too old to be his parents, and were most likely grandparents.)”.

He would be a grandson via Benjamin

Here's one for the Lawson / Timberlake info...

http://home.earthlink.net/~lnoss/id2.html

That Francis Timberlake died in 1762 and left a will naming five children, two sons named Ephaphroditis and Rchard, daughters Mary, Elizabeth, and Sarah. The first Francis died 20 Jan 1726/7. Lt. Henry Timberlake was not the son of either Francis.

Thanks for sharing. JJohannes Jurian Westphal and Maretje Kool are my ancestora. I also have Vannoy, and Stalnaker and Elliot cousins in West, VA.