Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

Started by Joseph Bolton on Saturday, September 15, 2018
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Private User
6/1/2021 at 1:24 PM

Ok thank you!

6/1/2021 at 10:12 PM

Erica - regarding your reference to “ploughman,” the following is a quote by Professor Gregory Kennedy from the Université de Moncton whose area of research deals with farming in marshland (France to Canada to Louisiana): “I further realized that drained marshland was deemed particularly valuable in the Loudunais, just as it came to be in Acadia. Local lords developed large, centralized farms (métairies) on these properties and then leased them out to wealthier peasants called ploughmen (laboureurs).” I’ve come across several researchers who believe that François was from the Loudunais.
I’m still looking for the time line book, but I keep getting distracted with whatever I pick up! Helen (?) Massagnon did a tremendous amount of research with ancient records in France prior to her death in 1966 in her work to identify the early settlers of Acadia. “Savoie” is one of the families that she researched. More to follow.

6/1/2021 at 10:54 PM

This is more interesting. Who were the “ploughmen,” how were they selected, & more importantly - how did they (especially Francois) get the money to lease land?

6/2/2021 at 3:28 AM

We have to terms in french and this 2 functions are differents. I saw, like in the ancestors of Marie Boyleau and Marguerite Boyleau (pioneers in Quebec), a noble man, Léonard Ferrant, husband of Jeanne de Portebise, who was "Fermier" (farmer) to Ballan-Miré. The function of a "Farmer" in big resume was like be in charge of the administration of the land. So some "écuyers" was farmer but never saw a count , a duke or other high rank at this function.

Ploughman in french, as you already know, is "Laboureur". A ploughman was the peoples who works hard, never saw a noble case in this category.

François Scavois - Scavoir, is a ploughman in the census.

For the DNA, i tried to found again the person who was tested in the direct line I think some people shared the link to us in a discussion. I continue my research.

6/2/2021 at 3:32 AM

Yesterday, i turn alot of the pages about the correspondances of Charles d'Aulnay cause for me, if he receive a bastard from Thomas Savoie de Carignan, as he wrote about all the nobles persons who was concerned to him and to the acadia, i was ready to see some informations in this correspondance. But for the moment, nothing about François Scavois. I Share the link again :

6/2/2021 at 3:40 AM

Diane

" One of the Savoies wrote a book about it. I believe it was also quoted and identified several years ago by Joseph Bolton on this thread, but I have the book and will find it for you."

Books are good for the research but they are not primary sources and often they never give primary sources, same case with William Ross , Eddy Ross give him as parents Alexander Ross 7th d'Easter Fearn and Helene Bayne of Tulloch, after alot of research, we can say that it is not true cause Eddy Ross had never give any primary sources for this and no more informations was found about what he wrote after alot of research.

So we really need to be careful with books...
If we found some documents of the periods, like Charles d'Aulnay or baptisms of Francois ect, it will be a proove and a real fact.

6/2/2021 at 3:57 AM

" Loudun était une cité pictave. Terre de convoitises, le Loudunais et la sénéchaussée de Loudun furent rattachés à l'Anjou, contrairement au découpage administratif au xxie siècle, où la région Nouvelle-Aquitaine présente au nord du département de la Vienne une excroissance pour englober Loudun. Au Moyen Âge et jusqu'à la Révolution française, c'est le Saumurois qui s'enfonce dans le Poitou actuel englobant Loudun et le Loudunais jusqu'à Mirebeau au sud. "

So there is the link for access to all the baptisms online for this region and find primary sources. I will make a look this morning on my side (scroll down on the page I already choosed Loundun for you) :

https://archives-deux-sevres-vienne.fr/archive/resultats/etatcivil/...

6/2/2021 at 5:46 AM

The book is “Savoy Heritage 1621 to the Present” by Louis Germain Savoy, 1st edition 1983. Louis Savoy began his research in 1951 building upon the previous research of his uncle, Peter Savoy.

Please also see “Frenchmen Into Peasants” by Leslie Choquette.

My earlier reference to “Helen” Massagnon is incorrect. The correct name is Genevieve Massagnon.

6/2/2021 at 6:22 AM

Erica - There are several other writings by Professor Kennedy that touch on the subject of “ploughman.” Also, please see Leslie Choquette’s book “Frenchmen into Peasants” which is an analysis of that subject, among other things.

Jonathan - I am in complete agreement with your assessment that books are only as good as their primary sources. Aside from Louis Savoy’s book, the research of ancient French documents conducted by Genevieve Massignon seems to be in a category all its own. It is said that she was one of the first historians to systematically study the French archives for the origins of the Acadian families. During the course of her research, it is said that she discovered in ancient parish registers the names of several families known to have immigrated from France to Acadia. The Savoies are allegedly among them. I think I’ve seen a link to some of her research referenced by another group of Acadian researchers. I haven’t found it yet, but will share it when I do. In the meantime, I believe that there may be references to Massignon’s work by some members of the group Amitiés Acadiennes Association.

6/2/2021 at 6:24 AM

Jonathan - Thanks so much for the link!!

6/2/2021 at 8:47 AM

Yes, the Louis Savoy book has been referenced, a scan of a few pages in fact is here:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000082250883900

But as far as I know, my question about who first reported the deathbed confession and how is unanswered.

Private User
6/2/2021 at 10:47 AM

https://www.familyatlouisiana.com/savoies-of-cameron-parish.html

"Southwest Louisiana Genealogy for Family At Louisiana"

The Saga of the Savoies of Cameron Parish revealed by Nola Mae Ross

Francois Savoie, the progenitor of all the Savoie /Savo/Savoy/Savoye/Savois families in Southwest Louisiana, emigrated to Port Royal Canada from France in about 1643. He was a well established landowner and farmer in Port Royal by the time the British forced the Acadians out of Canada in 1755.

“Francois Savoie,” according to a family book written by Harry J. Savoy, who has impeccable references, “was the first and only Savoie who immigrated to Acadia, thus making it almost certain that all the Acadian Savoys, are related.”

To avoid further confusion with the spelling of the name I shall use “Savoie” in this article. Through census records we find that both Francois and his wife, Catherine Savoie, had perished before 1678. The second generation, comprised of Francoise, Germain, Marie, Jeanne, Cathrine, Andrea, and Marie, grew up, married and had large families in Port Royal.

“After Germain Savoie died,” wrote Harry J. Savoy, “most of his sons moved north across the Bay of Fundy to what is now New Brunswick. Four of them evaded capture and deportation during the Canadian Expulsion, although the rest were deported. Germain’s youngest son, Charles Savoie, and his family of eight children were exiled to New York. His eldest son, Francois Savoie, was separated from the family and sent to Georgia.”

6/2/2021 at 11:41 AM

What are the “impeccable references”?

https://books.google.com/books/about/Savoy_Savoie_Savois_Families_o...

“... Descendants of Francois Savoye (1620-1678), who arrived at Acadia (Nova Scotia) ca. 1641 probably from the Poitiers area of France or northern Italy. ...”

It does not appear that he marketed Francois’ origin as fact.

6/2/2021 at 1:43 PM

Your welcome, if Francois Scavois - Savoie came from Paris it will be more difficult to find primary sources cause alot of documents had burn in the events of 1871 (la commune).

So... I hope for us he doesnt came from there... But for be in the middle all time, Thomas Savoie had some of his childs in the city of Paris.

Well, it will be so cool to have more clue about where he came from, I can for alot of parts of France get original parishs documentations if you are interesst to check. I did a check this morning cause I work alot. And i explored the year 1620 and 1621 for Loundun and I saw no Savoie.

6/3/2021 at 3:11 AM

For the hypothetic Martaizé origins, we can make a check in the baptisms, weddings and burials of Martaizé but they start at 1626...

If François Savoie came from there, some cousins or his father and mother can had let a trace in this documents. Lets see " parrain " and " marraine " ect and lets see for some Scavois or Savoy

There is the link to access to this primary source of Martaizé - Begin in 1626 :

*Im doing a check this morning)

https://archives-deux-sevres-vienne.fr/ark:/28387/vtaf294d86abd83dc...

6/3/2021 at 3:18 AM

(If you are on cellphone you put the page in computer format and You have to uncheck " Résulats pertinents ..." for see all the pages and for turning the pages).

6/3/2021 at 3:49 AM

So I can tell you than I did a fast good check up of all the baptisms in Martaizé (1626 to 1650) and no Scavois or Savoie there...

For me, if Francois had family there, the probability than he had sisters, uncles, ect was big and no one with the name of Scavois - Savoie are there.

I really have big doubt about Martaizé... Maybe some places around ...?

6/3/2021 at 6:43 AM

Erica - I’m still looking for my copy of the Savoy book. My memory is that the author describes the family member or members from whom he got the information. If nothing else, we can at least date the last living person from whom Louis got his info.

6/3/2021 at 6:51 AM

Erica Howton: This is the opinion of one researcher who used the fallacy that "lack of evidence is evidence" . Paul Leblanc does not provide any evidence disproving the connection of Francois Joseph Savoie to the House of Savoie. This researcher also makes the rather racist claim that French Canadians do NOT have Native American ancestry. This flies in the face of DNA evidence that shows a clear connection between modern French Canadians like myself and Native Americans. This researcher is a questionable source for you to be referencing.

Erica Howton: https://www.acadian.org/acadianmyths.html

MYTH # 2:

Francois Savoie's parents are unknown. He was NOT of the House of Savoy.

[This is a 'nobility myth' that has no basis and is merely wishful thinking! Such unfounded claims were often made, when the researchers payment was based on 'finding' nobility]! Posted on the 'Acadian and Cajun Genealogy, History, Culture and Music' Facebook Group by Paul Leblanc on 07-15-2011

That is the opinion of one researcher who used the fallacy that "lack of evidence is evidence"

6/3/2021 at 7:00 AM

From Jonathan Chénier: "So I can tell you than I did a fast good check up of all the baptisms in Martaizé (1626 to 1650) and no Scavois or Savoie there...

For me, if Francois had family there, the probability than he had sisters, uncles, ect was big and no one with the name of Scavois - Savoie are there.

I really have big doubt about Martaizé... Maybe some places around ...?"

Hello Jonathan! You have stumbled on one of the major issues with people denying the connection of Francois Joseph Savoie and the house of Savoie: There are NO baptismal records showing that Francois Joseph Savoie came from Martaizé. What also makes this puzzling is that other baptismal records from Martaizé are readily available but not for Francois Joseph Savoie. In fact, while many baptismal records for French Canadian pioneers have been found in France, no one has found one for Francois Joseph Savoie in France despite diligent searches for it. Therefore, we must consider the possibility that Francois Joseph Savoie was not born in France.

6/3/2021 at 7:00 AM

Jonathan - I don’t think François was from Martaize. Several months back, I suggested that if Tommaso was caring for the child, he may have done so in Chambery which was the original base of the House of Savoy. By the time of François’ birth, the family had already moved to Turin. The is also the possibility of Hautcombe Abbey which is north of Chambery.

There is also speculation that Princess Catherine of Spain is François’ mother. If so, François may actually have been raised in Spain. Thank you so much for taking the time to look!

6/3/2021 at 7:37 AM

From Erica Howton: "It’s not broken.

We do not have sufficient evidence to show any parents for Francois Joseph Savoie"

Erica, it's significant to note that you are using "sufficient evidence" rather than "no evidence."

That distinction is important because there is evidence that Francois Joseph Savoie is the son of Tomasso Savoie of the House of Savoy. It's just that the evidence is not considered "sufficient."

This touches on why I have concerns about how this whole issue of François Joseph Savoie has been handled on Geni. On one hand, the evidence to connect Francois Joseph Savoie is "not sufficient", yet at the same time the evidence connecting just about everyone to Noah, King David, even Adam and Eve is considered "sufficient". There isn't a standard definition of what constitute sufficient evidence vs not sufficient evidence and it seems those terms are used on Geni in arbitrary and inconsistent way.

6/3/2021 at 8:38 AM

They are not used inconsistently by me. If my attention is directed to a profile, I go through the same process.

Adam of Eden is continously re added by members, you’d have to ask them why they do it. I know curators continuously try to fix it.

So lets not do that to your ancestor.

6/3/2021 at 8:48 AM

Hi Joseph,

With all my respect, I just wanna a do a clarification again there.

Evidence exist in genealogy this is documents of the period, testimonies on real paper of the time ect... Its sample as that.

A books writing in 1970 about the family Savoy by a man who came from Luisiana with no sources or primary sources is not evidence. Its simple as that.

I already explain my double link to François Savoie and it will be awsome if we can REALLY proove this link.

Joseph, for the good of that research we have to stay neutral and we have to try differents things together. This research is not close and we cant say where came from François for the moment.

In fact, and all what we have, François can still be a son of Thomasso but we didnt find enough documentations.

He can be also a son of an other Savoy noble,
or, he can be the son of a ordinary man from France.

For the moment, no documents proove the filiation you claim as already prove. Excuse my bad english again.

I dont put away your theory or the "oral tradition" they are elements to consider but it will be great to search all together.

Cordialy

Jonathan

6/3/2021 at 8:58 AM

I wanna add :

By the way the book of the man who came from Luisiana, I know he wrote it about 1950, but it was only an example.

I sent to people link for look at Charles D'Aulnay papers, baptisms from Loundun, baptisms from Martaizé, they are all real matter and if we can find something in that kind of documentation, it will be a real proove. A real genealogical evidence.

Lets work with real things ! Not old story from the wind of Acadia.

But where all this stories are valuable its in the process than we can take this stories and try to figure out in real documentations if it was real or not.

It will be my pleasure, for our commun ancestor, to help you when and where I can.

Private User
6/3/2021 at 9:05 AM

Lack of evidence = "parents unknown".

Frustrating as that may be, it happens a lot. Sometimes to connections that have a long-standing tradition but no primary proof.

As for evidence from books, something as recent as 1950 probably isn't going to perpetrate a family fraud (there were a lot of books that did just that in the late 19th and early 20th century), but may be repeating a family legend (there's still a lot of that).

6/4/2021 at 4:57 AM

We have only one real way to investigate.
We all know in fact than François was from France and he lived in Acadia between 1640 and 1671.

Well, all the boats for raise the population by Charles d'Aulnay was sent by La Rochelle in France. All passengers for new world had to signed a "Contrat d'engagement" before the depart.

As we already know, all the parishs in Port Royal (Acadia) from the period 1640-1700 was certainly losed or destroyed by the wars and the events in that place.

If you take a look at this exhaustive list, you can see some travels of Charles Daulnay from Acadia to France and France to Acadia for many differents reasons. In all travels he leave France from La Rochelle :

http://www.mwlandry.ca/landryacadienfrance.htm

Maybe if we do a check in all the contracts for the Canada in the period 1640-1655 we can do a step in this research. There is the link for see alot of this contracts :

http://www.archinoe.fr/console/ir_ead_visu.php?PHPSID=0a685db59dd66...

6/4/2021 at 8:14 AM

SCAVOIS - SAVOY - SAVOYE & SAVOIR

(I add this for complicate more this investigation)

But Germain, the son of Francois and Catherine Leujeune had a child : Charles. So its more in the period of François (1703) than the case of André his grand son who signed Scavoir-Scavois ( about 1750).

In the original baptism act of Charles from Port-Royal (Acadia) (this document is preserve in the archives of Ottawa in Ontario) you can read :

" Le vingt quatrième de Juin de l'an mil sept cent trois, moi (illisible à cause du flou) foi dans les fonctions (illisible) ai baptisé sans (conditions?) CHARLES SAVOY fils de GERMAIN SAVOY et de MARIE VIMCELOTE légitime conjoint ... né du 25 Mai de la même année. Il a eu pour parrain Yvon(e?) Maidemar ? Pour marraine Marie Savoy lesquels ont déclarés ne savoir signer ..."

https://www.ancestry.ca/mediaui-viewer/?_phcmd=u(%27https:%2F%2Fwww...

I can did a mistake in the reading but the document seems legit.

So Charles Savoy was born the 25 May 1703 and was baptized the 24th June 1703 at Port-Royal.

Sources : Original baptism preserve in Ottawa archives in Ontario - Port Royal Acadie 1702 - 1737

So there is the documents we have :

- The census of 1671 (spelling : SCAVOIS)

- The baptism of Charles Savoy in 1703 (spelling SAVOY)

- Alot of documents original from Port Royal as baptisms or other where I saw Germain Savoye (spelling SAVOYE)

- The André Savoir- Scavoir signature (spelling in his signature SAVOIR).

Private User
6/4/2021 at 12:47 PM

Jonathan, would all of the spelling variations have been pronounced approximately the same way?

I think it's significant that Jeann Andres Savoir was able to write his name in such an elegant style.

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