Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

Started by Joseph Bolton on Saturday, September 15, 2018
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6/5/2021 at 1:55 AM

What is revelant there for the Charles Savoy baptism and Germain Savoye its the early time in the period. More next from the period where François lived. So with all the Germain Savoye documents (parishs registers) and Charles Savoy baptism I really think the prononciation was Savoie and André give it a modification later in the 1750 years for Savoir.

I saw a document from the hand of Thomas Savoie Carignan and he sign and write too as Savoy.

BUT .... I dont say its enough revelant for link this people but we can try to search with the Savoy spelling (Noble family in France OR NOT NOBLE),

6/5/2021 at 1:58 AM

We have to take a big note than no body in the family, in the period of the baptism of Charles Savoy, know how to sign their names.... Cause it was said in the baptism of Charles. (1703)

6/5/2021 at 4:51 AM

For the "Scavois" spelling, I can confirm in this research, maybe alot of you already know that, (my french is really good and I can read alot of old french documents) but in my readings this week (Charles Daulnay correspondances and Charles Etienne de la Tour - 2 nobles in charge of immigration in Canada and Acadia) I can confirm they wrote like example the verb " know " as " Scavoir". So if you take this, when they enter the name of Francois in the census of Acadia in 1671, the spelling "Scavois" in the census is Savoie - Savoy. The "C" was use only for the form at this period.

So finally, for going against my past theory with André SavoiR, all the older documents about this family gives the spelling Scavois = Savoie, Savoy = Savoie, Savoye = Savoie against one from André as "SavoiR".

So the prunonciation SAVOIE is the big winner with primary sources.

6/5/2021 at 5:43 AM

4 PLAUSIBLES THEORIES :

We can read in the baptism of Charles Savoie in 1703, than his father and mother were alived in the event and they were there. No body knows how to sign at the time. Germain being the son of Francois Savoie would have learned to sign if his father had a noble education.
This is almost completely factual.

So it is almost certain that François Savoie himself may not have known how to write. So if we keep the theory that Thomas was his father, in my opinion and with the deduction of all these documents, he must indeed have been a child declared illegitimate of Thomas by a middle-class mother of lower rank or even a roaster. We can really put aside any theory about François' mother and even more that it was a Bourbon.

So 4 logicals theory cases arise:

1. François Savoie was the illegitimate son of Thomas Savoie of Carignan and a peasant mother. He was certainly not recognized by the father, certainly did not enter into any connection with him either during his childhood. And question of hushing up the affair, he was sent to Acadia to dispel court gossip about his father's low morals, who were more targeted during this period.

2. François was the son of peasants who bore another name and the name Savoy was given to him to designate his origin like many Canadian settlers. In this case, he was simply from Savoy and it was a nickname for his native land.

3. A false claim of paternity from the mother of François in France for gain some money or some notoriety. It could has been a bad affair to lie like this about a high ranking noble but this theory is a plausible one too.

4. He was from an other house of Savoy and illegitimate son too (This theory is in last position cause if the dead bed confession really existed, this theory sink).

We cannot rule out either of these 4 theories at this time.

6/5/2021 at 5:47 AM

BUT at my sens we CANT add more theorie like mother was a princess too ect...

Jonathan

Private User
6/5/2021 at 6:52 AM

The catch here is that there does not appear to be a record of the House of Savoy *ever* using the "Scav-" form. And considering the derivation of "Savoie, Savoia" from "Sapaudia" rather than "sapere", there is no reason that they should have done so.

6/5/2021 at 6:55 AM

Jonathan,

Why do you rule out “unknown Savoie family” ?

6/5/2021 at 7:20 AM

Maven, the only place I saw SCAVOIS spelling is in the census of 1671. You know the census is not writing by the people in the house, right ? Alot of french used in the past S+C for the verb in french Savoir so they spelled Scavoir. The sound of this prononciation stay savoir without C. This C was used for the form. I know im french. So Scavois was writting by a person who heard " Savoie" verbally.

After, all the others registers I saw in the second rank of anciennety was spell Savoye or Savoy.

And we have indeed documents that the Savoie from France spelled their names Savoy.

Like "Roi" (King) in french, in the old time we spelled " Roi " as " Roy" .

So Savoie prononciation in all logical way win.
Its not a proove for paternal link with Thomas.

6/5/2021 at 7:22 AM

Erica I dont rule out anything, look the 4 theories : Read the second one... The second one include peasants parents with the name Savoie. But Im waiting to see that. Seriously I look alot of parish registers from Loundun and Martaizé and for the moment I didnt see Savoy peasants...

6/5/2021 at 7:33 AM

I know in the second one, I wrote he got an other name, but we can include Savoie peasant but Im waiting to see documents about a family Savoie in France not noble in any way.

6/5/2021 at 8:22 AM

I like the idea of a toponym (“from” Savoie ...). It’s consistent with the naming practice in Dutch records for the New Netherland Colony in the same time period. It wasn’t necessarily a social class indicator, though.

6/5/2021 at 9:21 AM

Yeah if its like the second theory (of the 4 theories) it was exactly the idea. Alot of people had surnames like this in Quebec and took that surname as a family name. So François could have an other name and that surname indicate he came from the duché de Savoie. But this one stay a theory too with not much indicators for his real name.

I was reading this week an other family name for Catherine LeJeune. Did we know where this other name came from ?

So did we know where came from the death bed confession ? I Think Joseph told it was family oral tradition only ?

6/5/2021 at 10:17 AM

The long-standing tradition that Francois Joseph Savoie revealed through a death bed confession that he is the is the illegitimate son of Thomas Francis of Savoy is not the only evidence that this connection but it is the strongest and can not be easily dismissed. Consider that this oral tradition has persistent among his descendants in populations that have been geographically separated for centuries and essentially out of contact with each other.
This demonstrates several key points:
- That the oral tradition arose very early in the history of the Savoie family in North America when the population was small and local
- The source for the oral tradition had to be credible to those who heard the story. If not, the story would have died centuries ago
- The only credible source that would been believed would have to be Francois Joseph Savoie himself. It had to come from him or no one would have believed it.
- If Francois Joseph Savoie was known as a liar or a teller of tall tales people would have dismissed his deathbed confession as “just one of his tall tales.” However, it was accepted, passed on and never doubted by his descendants (until Geni)
- If it Francois Joseph Savoie lied, what would the purpose be? Neither he or his descendants have made any claims on the House of Savoy or have asked for any special considerations from anyone. Besides, if he died lie, why did he choose an minor noble family from Italy to make his connection? Why not go all in and say he was the son of the King of France?
Again, I am requesting this connection be restored or at the very least an alternative lien be created so those of us who do believe that this connection is valid can continue our family research. I would note that the Geni member who first requested the change, Mr. Joshua M Swerling, is not a descendant of Francois Joseph Savoie and has chosen not to participate in these very discussions he started. If he is not longer interested, why are still having this discussion on his behalf? Please change it back or set up an alternative line. Thank you.

6/5/2021 at 10:19 AM

From Erica Howton: "I like the idea of a toponym (“from” Savoie ...). It’s consistent with the naming practice in Dutch records for the New Netherland Colony in the same time period. It wasn’t necessarily a social class indicator, though."

My response: There is not any record at all that he used "from” Savoie" in this manner with his last name at all. Its a bad theory, there are no facts to support it at all.

6/5/2021 at 10:27 AM

The doubt are not about François Savoie but the peoples living between 1800 and 2000 who can easily create and write a false "bed dead confession oral tradition".

So when we ask where this story come from, we already know it was from Francois Savoie but did we have real sources about this oral tradition in the Savoy families from Acadia... ? Did they wrote something about it in the 1700-1850 periods ?

Did this story was invented by a Savoie from Acadia in the 20 century ? I dont judge this tradition, i want more informations.

And by the way, its not for go against you but saying he choice a minor noble family its completly false and wrong. The Savoie was in the high ranking nobility. They had some difficulties but their titles was in the high rank nobility. Duke or Prince is High. When your grandmother and grandfather are King of Spain or Princess of France, you are not in a MINOR family. I saw minor nobility so often, believe me.

Jonathan

Thanks

6/5/2021 at 10:31 AM

From Erica Howton: "I like the idea of a toponym (“from” Savoie ...). It’s consistent with the naming practice in Dutch records for the New Netherland Colony in the same time period. It wasn’t necessarily a social class indicator, though."

My response: There is not any record at all that he used "from” Savoie" in this manner with his last name at all. Its a bad theory, there are no facts to support it at all.

******************************

My response (Jonathan) : Yes Joseph, indeed, we have no documents at all about Francois Savoie only the census of 1671 as I saw. But if you have some please share with us

Private User
6/5/2021 at 3:35 PM

Jonathan, you might want to look at some of the discussions about ("Princess") "Niketti". That story has a clear origin in the family of Virginia Governor John Floyd, and was probably being told among them by 1819, when then-Congressman Floyd named a daughter Nicketti.

However, to date no proof has been found that there ever was a "Princess Niketti", and a lot of the details don't hold up to close examination.

There was also a pretty good reason for coming up with a story linking the family's ancestry to the Powhatans - a connection of that sort, and *especially* a close family connection to Pocahontas, was the *only* socially acceptable non-Euro ancestry in the Cavalier set. (They were a bigoted bunch of SOBs, and they got worse - not better - as time went on.)

6/5/2021 at 4:24 PM

I agree with Jonathan,
We need more information about the origins of the death bed confession. Did someone make it up in the 1800s or 1900s? What is the earliest written record of this claim? As myself and others have previously pointed out, there are plenty of reasons why this claim was made, aside from it being reality.

As for removing the claim from geni, there is clearly insufficient evidence that Francois was of the house of Savoy. We should only have proven facts on a public tree.

6/5/2021 at 5:05 PM

How is this claim associated with the thought his wife was a child of Membertou?

Private User
6/5/2021 at 11:57 PM

I've never seen this "deathbed confession" mentioned in any of the early- to mid-20th century genealogies I have found for this family. So I'm inclined to think it must be some fanciful modern idea. I doubt anyone seriously entertained the idea until recently. In at least 3-4 published family histories I've checked in the past day or so, nothing of the sort has ever been seriously considered, and only one (the latest, which I linked above) even mentions the possibility of noble blood, with no mention of any "deathbed confession".

Some of the authors also acknowledged "Scavois" and other spelling variations.

I find it difficult to believe any rational, caring father would save such information for his last utterance, anyway. A decent father (which I believe Francois Savoie was) would more likely have taken his 'secret' to the grave with himself alone, if he really found it that embarrassing. He would not spare his own reputation, being deceitful and feeling guilty for decades, only to shock them with the 'bad' news at the end, like a coward.

And I have a strong hunch that the LeJeune and Scavois (Savois/Savoie/Savoir) families knew each other quite well (perhaps for generations) back in France, where Francois and Catherine were married.

https://archive.org/details/lesboisfrancs02mail/page/298/mode/2up?q...

https://archive.org/details/lagnalogiede00hame/page/n31/mode/2up?q=...

___________________________________________

The author of this text, published in Paris, spells the name, "SCAVOYE".

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k4087819/f168.item.r=scavoye

___________________________________________

I don't buy the story about the deathbed confession. It seems to be a recent development.

6/6/2021 at 4:50 AM

I think we have to stay careful with this deathbed confession, indeed, for me it is not a proove at all.
I try to be neutral and I dont believe than Catherine Lejeune was the daughter of a " princesse" mikmak and I refute any theories for the mother of Francois too, for me its a Walt Disney show.

But, I still have doubt about Francois Savoie if he was or not bastard of Thomas. We dont have any proove at all for the moment and the deathbed confession seems sketchy.

I think Lejeune was a french family too.

For the spelling like I said and im not saying its a proove of nobility, Scavois and Scavoye is Savoie in french. I have no doubt for this now after all my readings this week of old documents. Charles Daulnay for example and like I wrote earlier, spelled the verbe Savoir in french as Scavoir. So the C was for the form.

6/6/2021 at 11:12 PM

I finally found my copy of “Savoy Heritage . . .” This is the book that we’ve all been discussing, but it’s not the book I was looking for that contains an analysis of the actual oral histories - thus my search continues. In any event, in1951, the author of “Savoy Heritage” was first asked to research the Savoy family tree. That labor of love resulted in much more research and ultimately the 1983 book. The author was first directed to his Uncle Peter who was the de facto family historian of his generation. Uncle Peter is the individual who provided the author with the gist of the 17th century events that are found in the book’s Preface. From there, the author began his work to corroborate the family’s oral traditions and to compare them with known historical facts. The author collected all available records of the Savoy family history, compiled them into chronological order, and deleted all duplicative info. The book is the result of that effort. As best I can determine, Uncle Peter’s efforts to collect and to create a record of all of the family’s oral histories - not just those related to Tommaso - began in the early 20th century.

While on my scavenger hunt for the Savoy book, however, I came across some of my old notes that are probably from the early-
1980s. The book is entitled “Early Virginia Immigrants 1623-1666.” It’s a book that contains lists of passengers arriving in the Virginia colonies. Other than having the surname of Savoy, it meant nothing to me at the time. My notes state: “Thomas Savoy 1652 by Richard Coleman ______________ Co.”. I Googled the book today, and actually found it. My quoted reference is right where I originally found it. There are several things that are interesting about the info: 1) the arrival date is within the time frame that François immigrated to Canada; and 2) the empty line means that a third-party did NOT pay for Thomas’ travel to Virginia. The book is available for download at no charge, and is also offered through the usual sellers. Just another brick in the wall. More to follow once I find the book that I’m actually looking for.

6/6/2021 at 11:28 PM

Jonathan - my research (and that of many others) confirms your theory that Catherine Lejeune was NOT the daughter of a MikMaq - much less a Princess. Catherine and her family were indeed French - although I doubt from Martaize - for whatever that’s worth.

6/7/2021 at 5:33 PM

We can know if it was the same Savoie.
A Savoy in new-england (America) in 1650
was not a common thing. Interessting case, and
the first name is Thomas... ? Strange case.

Really interessting if we can really link this Savoy from Virginia with the acadian one.

He had indeed a sponsor for his travel and it was Richard Coleman.

http://www.evmedia.com/virginia/

6/7/2021 at 7:38 PM

Richard Coleman transported:

Chapman John 1651 Richard Coleman York
Carilesse Andrew 1651 Richard Coleman ???
Goodman William 1651 Richard Coleman York
Hansworth Thomas 1651 Richard Coleman York
John Thomas 1651 Richard Coleman York

Berker Thomas 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Chapman Thomas 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Clarke Daniell 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Dorman Peter 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Eldrige Hugh 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Greenhoe Thomas 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Hall Mathew 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Hallingham William 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Hammond William 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Hankins Richard 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Hare James 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Hart Thomas 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Hill James 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Hopkins Mathew 1652 Richard Coleman ???
James Watkin 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Jones Mary 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Jones Samuel 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Langford ??? 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Lawerence James 1652 Richard Coleman ???
Malliose Edward 1652 Richard Coleman ???
March Thomas 1652 Richard Coleman ???

6/7/2021 at 7:40 PM

Savoy Thomas 1652 Richard Coleman ???

So with the same big lot of transported persons

6/8/2021 at 2:10 AM

I saw yesterday than a Savoy family was in Virginia around 1620 but it was a surname for family of black slaves. Abraham Savoy was an old slave who lived around 100 years old. I think he had a son named Francis Savoy but they were black persons not European. But I dont say the Thomas Savoy sponsored by Richard Coleman was in this family but I share this information cause I tried to figure out if they was some Savoy in the area and time period.

Richard Coleman was from England and his father was noble I think. I think (information of my reading of yesterday) than he was the son of a "sir" Edward Coleman. People in this genealogy tree bring the testament of Edward Coleman as a proove for link this 2 individuals.

But maybe this Thomas Savoy has no link with our Savoy from Acadia but all the clues are good to analys and dig more deeply.

6/8/2021 at 2:13 AM

Oh by the way, good job Erica for bring to us all persons sponsorized by Richard ! I was thinking of doing the same thing this morning.

6/8/2021 at 2:42 AM

So after readings, I dont think its the same Savoy at all. Cause one Thomas Savoy from England (b.1589 d.1681), was in United-States and his father was a "Savory" so not a Savoy. He died in Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1681. But they seems to have wrongly wroted Savory as "Savoy" in documents.

I have no 100% proove than it could be the same Thomas Savoy from Virginia in 1652 but chances are good.

2 families of Savoy seems to lived in United-States at this period. Did I missed one or two ? All is possible, but as I know, one family was from Abraham Savoy a black slave from Virginia.
And the other, seems to be "Savory" from England.

So big chances to have no link with our François from Acadia.

6/8/2021 at 10:07 AM

I was always reading in the comments and "researchs" than Charles d'Aulnay recruited alot of man from Martaizé and Loundun... But today i was reading in :

" Une Colonie féodale en Amérique, l'Acadie (1604-1881) page 104 "

Charles Daulnay came back to France in 1641 and he passed the winter there for a bad affaire against Charles Etienne de Latour in America. He recruits alot of man in that period in the parish Charnisay (It was the land of his father).

https://numerique.banq.qc.ca/patrimoine/details/52327/1986879?docre...

I will do a check in this parish later

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