Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

Started by Joseph Bolton on Saturday, September 15, 2018
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6/8/2021 at 11:07 AM

Just a note. Actually, very few families, at this early date in the 1600s, were in Massachusetts “and” Canada “and” Virginia “and” New Netherland - one or the other! And not many French, as Britain was hostile to Catholics. So the French who came were mostly Huguenots, often a generation or two first in England or Netherlands, where they allied with Puritans. Paul Revere’s family is a famous example.

6/8/2021 at 11:11 AM

And also recall that English surnames often enough derived from Norman French - or place names. I would guess there are English families called “Savoy.” No other “sounds French” names in Coleman’s lot.

6/8/2021 at 6:09 PM

So do you think Francois Savoie could be the Thomas in Virginia ? What is your opinion ?
(On my side, I dont think so) But im curious to read you on this subject.

6/8/2021 at 10:21 PM

I would be very surprised if there’s any relationship, and I’m also guessing the Thomas Savoy of Virginia survived.

Here’s a well known French immigrant to Virginia (George Washington tree). He was Protestant, and took the Oath of Allegiance to the King of England. It’s all “very” different from Acadia.

Capt. Nicholas Martiau

6/8/2021 at 10:23 PM

I’m guessing Thomas Savoy “didnt” survive. A very large number did not - again, unlike Acadia and New England.

6/8/2021 at 10:45 PM

Here’s Richard Coleman

6/9/2021 at 4:41 AM

Thanks Erica !

If we return now in the center of the subject, the last thing I got was in :

" Une Colonie féodale en Amérique, l'Acadie (1604-1881) page 104 "

Charles Daulnay came back to France in 1641 and he passed the winter there for a bad affaire against Charles Etienne de Latour in America. He recruits alot of men in that period in the parish Charnisay (It was the land of his father).

https://numerique.banq.qc.ca/patrimoine/details/52327/1986879?docre...

This book tell us than Charles Daulnay recruited alot of people from Charnizay in the winter 1841.

https://archives.touraine.fr/search/results?formUuid=e9414896-40cc-...=

Charnizay Parish registers

So I continue to doing some checks but I will be surprise to see some Savoie as farmer there. I will do a check up anyways this week and I already started.

As im french I can tell you you gonna see alot of "Scavoir" but it always in the end of each event for tell us about if the person "Know" or not how to sign.

(Verb "To know" in old french = " Scavoir" / "how to sign" " Scavoir signer").

6/9/2021 at 10:02 AM

Sorry for share again this link, the other I shared with you in the pasts posts seems to be broke. So there is again the link for having access to Charles Daulnay old documents if you have interrest

http://anom.archivesnationales.culture.gouv.fr/osd/?dossier=/collec...

6/10/2021 at 6:27 AM

Okay today I read alot of documents and yesterday too and through the correspondence of Aulnay and Étienne de la Tour and having read everything, there is never any question of a Savoy family.

I have a question for you (all of you), the first document we have which established François Savoie in Acadia and his wife Catherine Lejeune is indeed the 1671 census, right?

Do we have any documents that prove they were already established in the 1640s-early 1650s? Where does this information come from?

I do not want to question everything to further complicate the research but on the contrary, to better enlighten us and widen the field of possibilities, is it possible that François Savoie and Catherine Lejeune arrived in Canada later? (Either during the years 1655-1660? Taking with them young children during the crossing).

6/10/2021 at 7:51 AM

JEAN SAVOIE "DIT VALOIS" ?

Interesting "fact" (for the oral tradition)

A grand-son of Germain Savoie and Marguerite Braut, Jean Savoie was call as : Jean Savoie dit VALOIS. He was born in 1749 in Port-Royal and died in 1809 in Louisiana USA.

" Jean "dit Valois" Savoie, Son of Charles Savoie & Francoise Martin Savoie. Jean was only 5 years old when the Acadian expulsion occurred. His father and mother were exiled to New York State and arrived with their eight youngest children in 1755. It is not known when or how they left New York. Jean married Marie Marguerite Catherine Boutin in 1773 in Ascension Parish and probably left for Opelousas soon after. Father of Anastasie, Marie Anne, Rosalie, Joseph, Marie Emelienn.... ect"

As everyone know, Thomas Savoie de Carignan was descended by his father and by his mother from the dynasty of the kings of France Valois. Through the mother of Thomas we found Henry II of France and Catherine de Medici and through the father of Thomas we found François I of France and Claude of France.

You are therefore perhaps already aware of this Jean Savoie "dit Valois" but I was not and this type of information could go in the direction of oral tradition. I will try to find documents or registers containing this "Jean Savoie dit Valois" and I will get back to you. Is it an addition by our contemporaries where was it really called "Valois" in the years 1760 to 1809. For me that would help to support this oral tradition.

He seems to be surnamed as Valois in this 2 documents, i have to do a check later :

13 octobre 1803 : Inhumation - Opelousas, St. Landry, LA

Sources: Southwest Louisiana Records, vol. 1-B, 1801-1810 - Donald J. Hébert - Rayne, LA, Hebert Publications, 1996 - p. 645 - Jean SAVOIE buried on 13 Oct 1803 at age about 50 years. Recorded by Fr. Louis BUHOT at St. Landry Catholic Church, Opelousas, LA (Opel.Ch.: v.1. p.66).

31 mars 1804 : Probate - Opelousas, St. Landry, LA
Sources:

- Southwest Louisiana Records, 1750-1900: compact disk #101 - Donald J. Hébert - Rayne, LA: Hébert Publications, 2001 - SAVOIE, Jean dit Valois Lists 3 minor children: Jean, Celeste, Lise. Succ. dated 31 March 1804. (LSAR: Opel.: 1804)
- Southwest Louisiana Records, vol. 1-B, 1801-1810 - Donald J. Hébert - Rayne, LA, Hebert Publications, 1996 - p. 646 - Jean SAVOIE dit Valois succession dated 31 Mar 1804 lists three minor children: Jean, Celeste, Lise. Recorded at the Louisiana State Archives (LSAR: Opel.: 1804).

6/10/2021 at 11:30 AM

Is there an implication the “oral tradition” is the Louisiana branch?

6/10/2021 at 12:08 PM

The question is why Valois as a nickname? Is it a coincidence that Thomas François Savoie Carignan was descended from the Valois through his father and through his mother? This is not irrefutable proof to link them but it is a light on the fact that it was possible that the oral tradition was indeed in the family since 1770-1804.

I looked for French synonyms for "Valois" and apart from one or two locations and the royal house, it didn't mean anything concrete.

Was it John (Jean Savoie dit Valois) also who started this tradition ? Well I believe that it gives us a good clue also in this direction.

Private User
6/10/2021 at 1:31 PM

Jonathan, they may have just found the nickname amusing. :D

6/10/2021 at 2:58 PM

I dont think so, lol, Valois means nothing in French... So its a terrible bad joke haha. Remember this nickname was added in his succession documents so why kidding in this papers ? 😄

6/11/2021 at 7:51 AM

I wrote a big resume-post in french for asking help to french people from France in all genealogical departments french groups, i'll come back to you if Ill get some results.

I have 2 versions of this posts one with DNA informations and the other with no DNA relatives informations.

In France its illegal to share DNA informations so in alot of Facebook group of genealogists, I had to removed all this chapter. I will now just giving you the publication without DNA informations if you want the one with this information there is a link on my tree, the 2 versions are there :

https://gw.geneanet.org/johnnyjo666_w?lang=fr&pz=jonathan&n...

There is the publication without DNA (in french) :

DEMANDE D'AIDE À NOS COUSINS FRANÇAIS CONCERNANT L'UN DES PLUS GRANDS MYSTÈRE GÉNÉALOGIQUE D'AMÉRIQUE - FRANÇOIS SAVOIE, L'ACADIEN :

(Toutes les informations relatives à l'ADN concernant ce dossier ont été retirées pour être en accord avec la législation française).

Ce texte est assez conséquent afin de vous donner un condensé de toutes les informations disponibles. Étant l'un des plus grand mystère de généalogie en Amérique du Nord, je trouves important en vous demandant votre aide, de vous prodiguer le plus de documentations possible. Soyez les bienvenues pour nous aider dans cette recherche !

INTRODUCTION

Bonjour à tous, je lance une ligne à l'eau parmis vous, chers cousins, afin de pouvoir répondre peut-être à l'un des plus grand mystère généalogique d'Amérique du Nord selon moi, espérant que les réseaux sociaux contemporains puissent démontrer l'étendue de leur efficacité.

Vous allez comprendre que ce n'est par paresse ou par manque d'efforts que je viens vous demander votre aide ici car de nombreuses recherches ont déjà été effectuées par le passé sans apporter d'avancées réelles. Souvent par des acadiens et des canadiens limités avec les ressources en France.

Port-Royal en Acadie, (aujourd’hui Annapolis à Terre-Neuve), fut pendant longtemps une colonie fleurissante et une terre d'acceuil pour beaucoup de français durant le 17ième siècle.

Ce lieu a subit de nombreux dégâts suite à de nombreux conflits entre britanniques et français. Les documents d'archives paroissiaux ont donc disparus pour les années 1600-1700 et on retrouve ce type de registres encore intacts seulement en 1702.

Par chance, des recensements débutant en 1671 nous aident aujourd’hui à retracer un portrait plutôt fidèle de ses habitants.

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FRANÇOIS SAVOIE - L'ANCÊTRE DES SAVOIE EN AMÉRIQUE.

François Savoie (Scavois - Savoy - Savoye) est recensé en 1671 avec sa femme Catherine Lejeune. Il est âgé de 50 ans durant le recensement. Celui-ci se trouve à être, grâce à la descendance de son fils Germain Savoie, l'ancêtre de tous les Savoie en Amérique du Nord.

Vers 1755, quelques décennies après la mort de François Savoie, l'Acadie connue la période baptisée " La déportation des acadiens". La couronne britannique ayant conquit ces territoires francophones avait prit l'initiative d'expulser tous les français qui refusaient cette nouvelle allégeance.

Donc beaucoup se sont retrouvés au Québec (pas encore conquit alors par les britanniques, cela viendra 5 ans plus tard soit en 1760) et beaucoup d'autres se sont retrouvés à être déportés aux États-Unis.
On retrouve d'ailleurs une branche bien connue des Savoie d'Amérique du Nord en Louisianne.

En 1671, avant tous ces événements, le recensement de Port-Royal en Acadie déclare :

" - Laboureur - FRANCOIS SCAVOIS agé de 50 ans, sa femme Catherine Le Jeune aagée de 38 ans. Leurs enfans, neuf, une fille de mariée, Françoise aagée de 18 ans, Les non mariez, Germain aagé de 17 ans, Marie aagée de 14 ans, Jeanne aagée de 13 ans, Catherine aagée de neuf ans, François 8, Barnabé aagé de six ans, Andrée agée de 4 ans, Marie aagée d'un an et demy, bestiaux a cornes 4 piéces, terres Labourables six arpans."

http://mwlandry.ca/recens1671.htm

(J'ai déjà eu accès à visualiser l'original et cette version retranscrite est parfaitement fidèle).

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MES RECHERCHES &
LES ORIGINES DE FRANÇOIS SAVOIE
(LES GRANDES HYPOTHÈSES)

Donc des centaines de milliers d'américains (habitants du Canada et des États-Unis) sont des descendants de ce François Savoie et nous cherchons à remonter cet arbre du côté européen.

Le recensement de 1671 est le seul document qui nous donne des informations sur François. Nous n'avons trouvé aucun registre de mariage antérieur ou de sépulture postérieur à 1671 pour nous révéler d'avantages d'informations le concernant.

Nous savons qu'il serait né vers 1621 et c'est tout.

J'ai consulté tous les contrats d'engagements numérisés à La Rochelle pour la période 1630-1650, disponibles en ligne et rien...

J'ai lu des mémoires et des correspondances de Charles d'Aulnay et Étienne de la Tour, gouverneurs successifs de cette période en Acadie mais toujours rien.

J'ai fouillé quelques registres de paroisses de Loundun, Martaizé et encore rien...

J'ai lu de multiples ouvrages de Lousianne et canadiennes et vous l'aurez deviné : RIEN.

Le néant concernant ce François Savoie.

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HYPOTHÈSE 1 SUR L'ASCENDANCE -
LA TRADITION ORALE (LA LÉGENDE)

De notre côté de l'Atlantique, il a été difficile de trouver des familles Savoie ou Savoye qui auraient été de simples laboureurs au 17ième siècle. Mais je continue à investiguer cette avenue.

Il y a aussi cette fameuse histoire de tradition orale pour les origines de la famille Savoie en Amérique.

Un certains Louis Germain Savoye, habitant de la Louisianne a publié vers 1951 le premier livre traitant ouvertement de cette tradition orale après beaucoup de recherches dans sa famille et parmis ses souvenirs.

Il émet l'affirmation suivant selon cette tradition orale qui découle de la fameuse "death bed confession" : François Savoie avant son décès, sur son lit de mort aurait fait la confession à ses enfants qu'il était le fils illégitime de Thomas de Savoie Carignan. Aucune mère n'est mentionnée dans cette confession. (Déjà que cette histoire est peut-être tirée par les cheveux, il faut ignorer absolument tous les gens contemporains qui donnent aujourd’hui comme mère à François dans leurs arbres sur le web l'épouse Bourbon de Thomas de Savoie).

Le seul "semi-fait" de cette confession et qu'il serait le fils de Thomas par liaison hors mariage et que sa mère est inconnue.

Thomas de Savoie Carignan aurait eu avant 1625 (année de son mariage avec Marie de Bourbon) donc peut-être vers 1620-1621 une liaison avec une mystérieuse inconnue et François Savoie, l'ancêtre des américains aurait vu le jour vers 1621 suite à cette relation.

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(ATTENTION)

En généalogie il faut en rester aux faits et aux éléments logiques comme tout bon enquêteur dans n'importe quel domaine.
Et beaucoup d'entre-nous (les descendant de François) recherchent la vérité et non un conte de fée royal. Je me suis donc permis à travers mes nombreuses lectures de faire un ménage dans certaines déclarations :

* Hypothèse à conserver *

1. François Savoie est peut-être bel et bien un fils illégitime de Thomas de Savoie Carignan. Sa mère est inconnue. Celui-ci n'a peut-être pas été reconnu par son père et la mère (inconnue) de François l'aurait mis au courant de ces faits durant sa jeunesse. Aucun droit et aucun héritage pour ce jeune "bâtard" au risque de décevoir plusieurs chercheurs contemporains en quête de gloire et de richesses loufoques.

* Toutes les autres hypothèses sur le web sont à ignorer car très probablement fausses et elles manquent souvent de logique *

1. François Savoie était un prince et il est né du mariage légitime de Thomas de Savoie-Carignan. (Beaucoup trop tiré par les cheveux et cette hypothèse semble avoir été rajoutée pour glorifier l'ancêtre acadien d'avantage. Tous les enfants de Thomas et Marie de Bourbon ont hérités de titres et d'opportunités égals à leur rang).

2. Catherine Lejeune, la femme de François l'acadien, était une princesse amérindienne. (Encore plus tiré par les cheveux ! Conclusion avec test d'ADN Information confidentielle et les amérindiens n'avaient pas trop de notions non-plus de princes ou de princesses dans leurs tribus. La fille d'un chef était certes prestigieuse dans sa tribu mais ne portait pas le titre de princesse. Je dois admettre que toute cette fantaisie aurait ouvert le chemin à Walt Disney pour en faire une belle histoire).

3. François Savoie serait le fils d'une fille bâtarde du roi Philippe III d'Espagne. (Aucune source - "TRÈS" tiré par les cheveux et encore un rajout inutile pour compliquer l'histoire par des contemporains).

4. François Savoie serait né à Martaizé d'une famille de laboureur. (Après recherches dans les registres de cette paroisse, aucun Savoie - Scavois - Savoye ni aucune Lejeune n'a été retrouvé(e) dans les registres de la paroisse de Martaizé).

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HYPOTHÈSE 2 - 

Ignorant la tradition orale peut-être fausse, François Savoie était le fils de laboureurs français.

Cette situation est tout autant probable que l'hypothèse numéro 1 et voir même sans doute plus réaliste. Cependant, nous ne pouvons éluder ni l'hypothèse 1, ni l'hypothèse 2.

Certains généalogistes mentionnent que beaucoup d'acadiens venaient de la région des départements de Vendée (Poitou), de la Vienne (Martaizé - Loundun) ou de l'Indre-et-Loire (Charnizay).

Pour le moment, aucune famille Savoie, Scavois ou Savoye n'a été retrouvée dans ces registres pour en faire l'étude. Et en France aucune famille n'a été ciblée non-plus autre que des familles de la maison noble des Savoie.

C'est ici aussi que nous vous demandons votre aide ou toute(s) information(s) relative(s) à une famille Savoie (non noble) selon vos connaissances et ce partout en France.

(Voir la fin de cette publication pour comprendre en quoi vous pouvez nous aider).

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UN FAIT QUI VIENDRAIT APPUYER LA PRÉSENCE D'UNE TRADITION ORALE  AVANT LES ÉCRITS DE LOUIS GERMAIN SAVOYE VERS 1951 :

Ceci ne vient pas prouver en soit un lien de parenté entre François Savoie et le prince Thomas de Savoie-Carignan mais cela appuierait par contre la présence d'une tradition orale bien avant 1951 dans les Savoie en Amérique du Nord.

François Savoie et Catherine Lejeune ont eut un fils Germain Savoie qui s'est marié à Marguerite Braut en Acadie et qui donnera une continuité aux porteurs du noms de Savoie en Amérique. Les autres de leurs enfants qui donneront une descendance seront les filles et ainsi les noms changeront au fil des unions. Plusieurs descendants de François Savoie en Amérique, descendent de ses filles.

Germain Savoie, fils de François et Catherine Lejeune aura pour petit-fils un Jean Savoie né en 1749 à Port-Royal, Acadie. Celui-ci sera donc dans un très jeune âge lors de la déportation des acadiens en 1755 qu'il subira.

On sait qu'il a vécu plusieurs péripéties et qu'il a finalement habité en Louisiane dans les treizes colonies (États-Unis) un peu avant et durant la révolution américaine. Il s'est marié en 1773.

Mort en 1803 dans ses documents de succession de 1804, il est inscrit : " Jean Savoie dit Valois".

Ce surnom suivra aussi sa fille, Céleste, qui sera surnommé comme vous l'aurez compris :  Céleste Savoie dit "Valois" .

Ce "Valois" vient-il de la tradition orale concernant Thomas de Savoie Carignan ? Est-ce un simple hasard ?

Il faut savoir que Thomas de Savoie-Carignan descendait de par son père de François Ier, roi de France et de par sa mère d'Henri II, roi de France. Ces deux rois français appartenant bien entendu à la dynastie "maudite" des Valois.

Certains mentionnent la Picardie en France qui aurait aussi porté le nom de Valois comme région.

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Le dossier ADN retiré de cet article pour respecter les lois françaises.

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COMMENT POUVEZ-VOUS NOUS AIDER ?

1. INFORMATIONS SUR UNE FAMILLE SAVOIE RÔTURIÈRES DU 17IÈME SIÈCLE EN FRANCE : Si vous possédez des informations sur ce sujet, le nom d'une où plusieurs paroisses où vous avez constaté cette présence dans des registres d'archives, votre aide est la bienvenue.

2. THOMAS DE SAVOIE-CARIGNAN : Si vous possédez des informations concernant un enfant illégitime qu'aurait pu avoir le prince de Carignan, toutes informations pertinentes est la bienvenue.

3. TOUTE AUTRE(S) INFORMATION(S) PERTINENTE(S) : Contrat d'engagement de François Savoie et Catherine Lejeune, contrats notariés, registres de paroisses où ils font leurs apparition avant 1650.. Cela serait une énorme trouvaille dans ces recherches.

4. PARTAGEZ : Si vous pouvez partager cette publication jusqu'à sa dernière ligne à des groupes où des blogues qui selon vous auraient l'expertise nécessaire pour faire avancer cette investiguation, soyez les bienvenues pour le faire. SVP en cas de transfert, copiez ce texte dans son intégralité jusqu'à mon adresse courriel y comprise.

Vous pouvez me contacter soit dans les commentaires de cette publication ou si partage il y a :

jonathanchenierdaoust@hotmail.com

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UN GIGANTESQUE MERCI D'AVANCE !

Signé :

Jonathan Chénier-Daoust, et à travers moi des centaines de milliers de descendants de François et Catherine partout en Amérique.

P.S - À noter : Cette publication a été publiée sur plusieurs groupes de généalogie française afin de nous donner le plus de chances possible de démystifier ce mystère. En toute transparence nous devions l'ajouter ici. Sachez que toutes les interventions seront lues, considérées et répondues. Il m'a été impossible d'en faire autrement étant donné que nous n'avons aucune idée réelle sur l'origine de François Savoie.

6/11/2021 at 8:22 AM

Thank you Jonathan for your comprehensive request for information on the Savoie/Savoy family.

As for Jean “dit Valois” Savoie, his parents, and their eight youngest children (including Jean) arrived in New Rochelle, New York in 1755 (Jean was 5-6 years old). Once the Acadians were freed, and uncharacteristically for a Savoie family, several of Jean’s siblings went to Martinique, and perhaps elsewhere, and the remainder, including Jean, went to Louisiana. It is believed that Jean, three sisters, and one brother arrived in Louisiana by mid-1765. He is identified living with his sister, Rosalie, and her husband in St. James Parish in the 1766 Spanish census. The first known use of the “dit Valois” “nickname” was around the time of his marriage to Marguerite Boutin in 1773. Jean and Marguerite were living in St. Landry Parish by the time of the 1777 census. Thus, it appears that Jean spent his first fifteen years with his parents and most of his siblings in Acadia and then New York.

Events that occurred several hundred years ago cannot credibly be viewed through a 21st century lens in terms of information availability if one expects to reach credible theories or conclusions. For example, François apparently knew more than just general information about the Savoy, and Jean’s use of “dit Valois” certainly didn’t come from formal (or even informal) education. By what means would François have obtained his specific info on Tommaso? Jean was using the monicker “dit Valois” approximately 100 years after François’ death. By what means (other than oral history) would Jean have obtained that information?

Has anyone found, anyone related to François other than his children and descendants? We have plenty of male Savoie DNA from François’ descendants. It seems odd (at least to me) that no connection has been made to any Savoie family (or any other family for that matter) that connects François to anyone other than his children and descendants.

Private User
6/11/2021 at 11:26 AM

" It seems odd (at least to me) that no connection has been made to any Savoie family (or any other family for that matter) that connects François to anyone other than his children and descendants."

Believe it or not, that does happen. There's the infamous Virginia case of "Charles Lee m. Ann Dabbs", once thought to have been an offshoot of THE Lees until Y-DNA research showed he wasn't - and to date no other Lee family, nor any other family, has matched his data. (And he's not a unique example, merely the best documented.)

6/11/2021 at 11:56 AM

I am currently noting all the comments I receive on all the groups which provide me with information on several Savoy roaster families who lived in France at the beginning and in the middle of the 17th century. It will be a fairly long job in the long term.

Today we received a response on my publication from Denis Beauregard, who is in my opinion one of the most seasoned genealogists in Quebec.

Here is his response that I allow myself to share:

"I think we should totally forget the princely theory which has the effect of removing all the seriousness of these steps. It is not a" hypothesis "but pure fiction without the slightest relation to reality. Savoie ancestor probably comes from France, period. Then you would have to do the Y test through FTDNA. If there is a match, it will be automatic. For the moment, only one Savoie has done the Big Y test (the test more precise) but several have the Y-111. A Y-37 will be sufficient to confirm that it is the same family. It is also necessary to ensure that it is not a descendant of the Acadian Savoys returned to France!

Note also that it is impossible to validate anything further than 8 generations with autosomal DNA only. We are well beyond the precision of these tests. Here too, we should stop giving credit to false information.

I would add that the French Heritage project has funds to pay for a Y-12 DNA test (the cheapest test) to cousins ​​of Acadians, men who descend to the male line (therefore, no woman in the line per se) , lineage documented until at least 1650, from a family having the same name as an Acadian pioneer of unknown origin (or even from certain families of Quebec also of unknown origin) if one already has a triangulation towards the pioneer (therefore, 2 lines documented and tested by YDNA). If the test is compatible with the other results, we will increase to Y-37. We already have several reference data whose triangulation is not yet established (because we have a long list of results available and the verification is done little by little). The list of triangulations is here. http://www.francogene.com/triangulation/y.php

For reference, verified lines: http://www.francogene.com/triangulation/TRI0512.php

6/11/2021 at 12:03 PM

So, I try to stay neutral, but I will take days off of this case this week end. I will continue to notes all the informations I get for some parishs in France where some Savoy families lived (noble or not).

For the Jean Savoie dit Valois, someone told me the region of Picardie in France was called Valois before. Is it possible that was the place where François Savoie came from (nobility theory apart) ?

I will let you know for sure all the informations Ill get in the total neutrality of this research.

Good week end to all !

Private User
6/11/2021 at 5:00 PM

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/nfravalver.htm:
The county of Valois was located south-west of the county of Soissons and south-east of the county of Clermont. The Vexin lay south-west of Beauvais on the border of the duchy of Normandy. In the 11th century Vexin was held by the Comtes de Valois. The county of Vermandois lay north and west of the county of Laon and east of Amiens, straddling the present-day French départements of Oise and Aisne. Héribert [VI] Comte de Vermandois acquired Valois by marriage and the two counties continued to be ruled by the same families until the early 13th century.
(Which was about when the Vermandois line fizzled out.)

Valois became a Crown possession and a title for younger sons of the Kings of France, until a series of misfortunes made the cadet line the senior surviving line.

6/12/2021 at 12:49 AM

Very nice that you’ve heard from http://www.francogene.com/denis.beauregard/welcome.php

6/12/2021 at 7:38 AM

Thank you Jonathan.

6/12/2021 at 10:23 AM

Now that I’ve had some time to think about Mr, Beauregard’s assessment, With all due respect, I don’t see that he offers anything in addition to what is already known. For example, I am not aware that anyone is credibly suggesting that François’ distant ancestors came from anywhere but France. The County of Savoy became the Duchy of Savoy in approximately 1416, and Chambéry became the seat of power. The House of Savoy did not move its capital to Turin until 1562 where Tommaso was born in 1596. With the exception of Tommaso and his father, Charles Emmanuel I, the Savoy ancestors were French. Tommaso began his career as a “soldier of fortune” in 1612 at or around the age of 16. He first took the side of Spain against France. Prior to his marriage to Marie de Bourbon-Soissons in 1625, he established what would be their future residence in Paris. Thus, during the eight years between 1612 and 1620 (when François was conceived), Tommaso was in Spain and/or France. As for the DNA information, it appears to remain insufficient to either confirm or deny François’ parentage. If you refer to a map of the modeling for the geographic origins of haplogroup r1b-Z367, you will see an area in western Italy (among several others in various locations in Italy) between Turin and Cuneo extending to the west through central France then to northwest France to England. (There are no locations identified in Spain). This particular modeling is generally consistent with Tommaso’s (and the Savoy’s) known locations in France. As with any modeling, however, the results are only as good as the assumptions used. I don’t fully understand the significance of the haplotype DYS464-15-15/16-17-18 to the DNA analysis.

6/12/2021 at 11:14 PM

Hello Diane,

I am pleased to share this information with you and it is a pleasure to read your interventions.

I believe that we can hypothesize over hypotheses concerning the supposed links between François Savoie of Acadia and the noble Thomas de Savoie Carignan for decades to come. However, I believe that we must also bring concrete to this discussion and that also includes the study of all possible avenues.

I have written and have seen many people write about the noble Savoy family, but we have nothing more or less to contribute. No documents and I searched for documents. Don't forget that I have just read a lot of correspondence from the governors of Acadia (Charles Menou d'Aulnay and Charles Étienne de la Tour) without having found a microscopic allusion to a bastard from a princely family.

Because even these governors of small nobility would have been slightly surprised at the arrival in Acadia of an illegitimate son of a man of high-middle nobility.

These last days I have therefore published this request for help on about fifteen groups of genealogies and I have noted many comments mainly focused on peasant families from Savoy who lived in France between the years 1620-1650.

My initial goal is to establish a list of parishes where these Savoie-Savoye families would have lived and subsequently to open the parish registers to bring out a list of François Savoie (candidates) born in 1620 and 1625. It will take a long time , not necessarily conclusive either at the start, but this list will allow us to have documented candidates.

Then the next step will be to push the investigation further.
I believe that we really have to go step by step and that it will take a lot of patience and perseverance.

I wanted to wait until Monday to send you all the comments (in a condensed style - collection) that I received through this fifteen genealogy groups on Facebook, but I will send it to you now. It should be taken into consideration that I had to correct the quick spelling of several comments in order to help the Google translator (French / English) to make a readable translation. So it may be that this "Collection of Clue Commentaries on the Savoys in France" is filled with small English spelling errors and please excuse me.

6/12/2021 at 11:15 PM

And indeed Erica, I find the intervention of Denis Beauregard who knows a lot about DNA. Without sweeping everything aside as he seems to do, we can on the other hand, with his expertise in DNA, tell us that the Bill Debuque case, despite good intentions, is ultimately based on very tiny probabilities of reliability ... I believe that we must now integrate this reality.

6/12/2021 at 11:27 PM

"Collection of Clue Commentaries on the Savoys in France" (Jonathan Chénier-Daoust 2021) :

RELEVANT INFORMATION

Relevant information:

______________________

1. Floriant (moderator of the France ADN - Genetic Genealogy group)

(June 11, 2021)

I think you can add a hypothesis: Valois before being a dynasty is a geographical area in Picardy and (after a quick check on geneanet) there is the surname Savoie, for example in Senlis or Compiègne. I see no reason for a bastard of the House of Savoy to take the dynasty of his grandmother as a surnon. It does not stick at all (especially with the very salic Capetian house)

ANOTHER ANSWER FROM Floriant:
(June 11, 2021)

Example on geneanet: https://www.geneanet.org/releves-collaboratifs/view/19143/565

2. Rom (confidential last name)
(June 11, 2021)
Group: Practical Genealogy Group

Hello, I have in my genealogy a Savoy branch towards Fismes (Marne) and Savoye in Cilly in the Aisne.
A publication entitled: "CHERCHEURS ET CURIEUX" of July 1953, n ° 28 deals with the House of Savoie-Carignan.
Perhaps in this publication they speak and give leads on a bastard François of Thomas?
Consultable on site in the departmental archives of the Ardennes under the PERA2 1 rating. Otherwise on this same site gallica.bnf.fr, you have very many genealogies of the families of the nobility and the royal house of France, more or less complete, j 've already found families whose bastards were named, you should research them.

Response to Rom:

(June 11, 2021)

Rom, this avenue has already been investigated a lot by the online genealogy of Thomas Savoie de Carignan, research in title firms and others has not shown anything concrete for the moment. Please know that your interventions are greatly appreciated and that I have taken good note of them. 🙂

NEW ROM ANSWER TO ME:
(June 11, 2021)

Do you know if the couple François Savoie and Lejeune arrived in Acadia already married or did they meet there? If they got married in France we could probably find their marriage contract ...

If not, have you also looked on the site of the National Archives of France? There seem to be several results on the Savoie Carignan family, in particular the number K576 containing extracts from wills.

Finally, the archives of the House of Savoy are kept in Italy in Turin it seems. Perhaps you will have more documentation on Thomas and his possible bastard son that he would have had before his marriage to Marie de Bourbon?

Good luck for this very interesting research in any case.

MY NEW ANSWER TO ROM:

(June 11, 2021)

I tried everything with the knowledge I have and this of Canada ... I searched in France-archives but nothing concrete on a bastard son and often there are only indexes for the archives that can be consulted on only place, hence all my limitation. For the parish or other archives of Turin I am in exploration mode for the moment. But as I am not an adherent more on one side or the other (that is to say the hypothesis of a noble or non-noble ancestry) I am looking very much at the moment to make a map of the Savoy families in France who lived around 1610-1640. It is progressing slowly but I am alone for the moment to continue this research in this way, without making hasty assumptions and by really opening the registers of yesteryear. Some have stopped opening parish books after having proposed Martaizé without any proof and no document. Which is a shame. Thanks I'm going to need it!
And we have no certainty before 1671 whether they arrived married or not in Acadia.

3. Mady (Last name confidential)
Facebook group: Genealogy in Savoy (73-74) - (June 11, 2021)

Yes, I noted in my genealogical file, 70 bearers of the surname SAVOIE (SAVOYE, SAVOY, SAVOIS) in France, in the department of Rhône, and more precisely in the parishes of Vauxrenard, Quincié, Fleurie, for the period 1600 in 1803. They are mainly ploughmen.

ANSWER to Mady:
(June 11, 2021)

Mady, Wonderful this is the kind of intervention we need! Thank you very much for bringing me this information. With all the comments collected I will draw up a map of the Savoy families in France. Can you specifically, if that's okay with you, quote me in which parishes your Savoy ancestors resided in the exact period 1600-1650? 🙂

NEW RESPONSE FROM MADY:
(June 11, 2021)

"Vauxrenard, Rhones-Alpes, France"

4. Dominique (Confidential last name)
Facebook group: France ADN - Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG)

(June 11, 2021)

I have some "from Savoy" in my tree they are all from Savoy and going further back they come from Italy.

MY RESPONSE TO DOMINIQUE:
(June 11, 2021)

Hello Dominique, do you have the names of the parishes of your ancestors during the years 1620-1650 in Italy? Is it possible for a Canadian to consult these parish registers online? (My knowledge of Italian genealogies is quite limited). Thanks for your help ! 🙂

5. Eric (Last name confidential)
Facebook group: Genealogy before 1789
(June 11, 2021)

Have you watched the History of the Lords of the South River and their Canadian and Acadian allies?

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k503932d

6. DENIS BEAUREGARD (Intervention of this seasoned genealogist in one of my publications concerning the DNA case of Bill Deburque).
Facebook group: France ADN - Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG)

(June 11, 2021)

"I think we should totally forget the princely theory which has the effect of removing all the seriousness of these steps. It is not a" hypothesis "but pure fiction without the slightest relation to reality. Savoie ancestor probably comes from France, period. Then you would have to do the Y test through FTDNA. If there is a match, it will be automatic. For the moment, only one Savoie has done the Big Y test (the test more precise) but several have the Y-111. A Y-37 will be sufficient to confirm that it is the same family. It is also necessary to ensure that it is not a descendant of the Acadian Savoys returned to France!

Note also that it is impossible to validate anything further than 8 generations with autosomal DNA only. We are well beyond the precision of these tests. Here too, we should stop giving credit to false information.

I would add that the French Heritage project has funds to pay for a Y-12 DNA test (the cheapest test) to cousins ​​of Acadians, men who descend to the male line (therefore, no woman in the line per se) , lineage documented until at least 1650, from a family having the same name as an Acadian pioneer of unknown origin (or even from certain families of Quebec also of unknown origin) if one already has a triangulation towards the pioneer (therefore, 2 lines documented and tested by YDNA). If the test is compatible with the other results, we will increase to Y-37. We already have several reference data whose triangulation is not yet established (because we have a long list of results available and the verification is done little by little). The list of triangulations is here. http://www.francogene.com/triangulation/y.php

For reference, the verified lines: http://www.francogene.com/triangulation/TRI0512.php

7. Cows (confidential last name)
Facebook group: Genealogy in Savoie 73-74 (June 11, 2021)

Savoy Michière, died 06.11.1645 in Combloux 74 Rhône Alpes, wife of Perret Jean, Parish Council. Statement from the Genealogical Center of the Pays du Mont Blanc. micro film 1144079. Quite a few other Savoie, Savoy, in the records of the Genealogical Center of Savoie based in Annecy. can also be seen in the ancient state of Piedmont Sardinia (Italy)

8. Sissi
Facebook group: Genealogy (s)
(June 11, 2021)

"By doing a geolocation search with the genanet of the surname SAVOIE (SAVOYE / SAVOY), it is found in the Vosges (88), Vienne (86), Somme (80), Seine-Maritime (76), North ( 59), Ille et Vilaine (35), Lozère (48) etc ... It goes without saying that all these people bearing this surname are not bastards of the male members of the House of Savoy. (I come from some ancestors): corresponded to the south-eastern quarter of the department of Oise with an adjacent part of the Aisne. It is located between Soissonnais to the north, Champagne to the east, Brie and the Pays de France to the south, Beauvaisis to the west. Enclosed is a map of the Pays de Valois dating from 1620 (Hondius)

I forgot to tell you about it. You should look for the genealogy association in Vendée, explaining your riddle and request to them, you may have the help of volunteers who can go to the AD. Immigrants made boarding contracts with notaries. To see through this. After the Jean SAVOIE dit Valois may have had a period as a soldier given the historical context of Louisiana, the soldiers had nicknames and they kept them in parish records ... we often read something muche dit .... .their nickname followed him throughout their lives and was passed on to generations, it even happens that the nickname becomes the surname 2 generations later. "

In the Aisne (02) few parishes go up so far in time. But here is according to a geolocation of the villages having had SAVOIE: Vézilly, Mauregny en Haye, Bézu st Germain, Festieux. According to this geolocation Vézilly is the place where there are the oldest. This village is very close to the Marne (51). In any case, you have to go through notarial research, because homonyms are common, and the registers will not give you any proof if you find a person called François SAVOIE that it is yours. The notaries are on the spot at the AD and laborious we will say: look for a needle in a haystack. "

9. Jany
Facebook group: Genealogy before 1789
(June 11, 2021)
"However, there are still several Savoy families in Vienne.

If I am on the right "track", his family would be from Haute Savoie, hence the name given by his ancestors! Of Savoyard and Italian origin, he is said to be affiliated with various royal families and a direct descendant of Charles Martel. If DNA could speak, all Savoys in North America may have "blue blood" in their veins ......! "

10. Odile
Facebook group: Franco-Italian Genealogy (June 11, 2021)

Get closer to Jean Marie DUBOIS and / or Seb AVY (geneaprovence website). They are passionate about Provençal genealogy and know a lot about the nobility in general. Do we ever know !

(ADD JUNE 12, 2021)

Error on the name given above: Jean Marie DESBOIS and not DUBOIS. With apologies

11. Aurora
Facebook group: Franco-Italian Genealogy (June 12, 2021)

Hello Jonathan,
Passionate about genealogy, I enjoyed reading your research. I live in Picardy, near Compiègne and there is an area called Pays du Valois. Have you tried to post your story in one of the Picardy genealogy groups?

Try this band, you never know:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/619608051450835/?ref=share

(Genealogy in Picardy)

12. Marion
Facebook group: Franco-Italian Genealogy (June 12, 2021)

I am in the Rhône-Alpes region, close to the Savoie department and your story calls out to me. Before the Savoy 2 were an independent kingdom with a princely family. Perhaps your Francis was part of this family and will be part of the new world.

MY RESPONSE TO MARION:
(June 12, 2021)

Thank you Marion, for the moment it is very difficult to prove this oral tradition. If we only follow the oral tradition, his father would be Thomas Prince of Carignan, but without this tradition, the chances are extremely strong that François is the son of roasters in France because he himself was a plowman. We would need more strong clues in order to continue to link it to the nobility of the Savoys.

13. Ginette Marie
Facebook Group: Practical Genealogy Group (June 12, 2021)

"My maternal SAVOYE family is from Valloire in Savoie. We don't have a François, but we go back to 1620."

MY RESPONSE TO GINETTE
(June 12, 2021)

Did you have access to regional parish registers for the period 1620-1650? Is the name of the parish Valloire? Thank you for this information Ginette!

NEW ANSWER FROM GINETTE:
(June 12, 2021)

"Regarding my Savoye family, I had access to all the documents on site at the town hall of Valloire. But I live 700 km from Valloire. We should contact a Savoyard genealogy association and see if a member can help you. "

14. Nadine
Facebook group: Genealogy
(June 12, 2021)

I don't know if this can offer you a track, but there are SAVOYEs in Normandy and more precisely near Rouen. This is one branch of my husband's family that I haven't worked on for a long time. The oldest (displayed on our tree) is Louis SAVOYE married to Marie PIER or PiERRE. Their son Denis married in 1677 to Marguerite LAURENT or LAURENCE in ISNEAUVILLE (Seine-Maritime).

We are far from the Savoye - Carignan I grant you!

MY RESPONSE TO NADINE:
(June 12, 2021)

Nadine, my goal is not to link François to this particular myth. The kind of information you give me is probably a lot more realistic and documented and that's what I'm looking for in the end. I am in the process of noting all the parishes where Savoy roturiers were found at the time. We must not forget that François Savoie in Acadia was a plowman. Thank you so much for sharing. Is there a parish in which your husband's ancestors have been recorded? Is it Rouen? Or a parish in Rouen? Thank you in advance !

RESPONSE FROM A MARY ON THE SAME GROUP TO MY RESPONSE TO NADINE:
(June 12, 2021)

"Hello, it does not mean anything the fact of being a plowman and only being a commoner. All it takes is a forfeiture, a forced exile (for love, for example). I have in my ascendants a public prosecutor. office and admodiator, who passed on his responsibilities to his eldest, the other sons were ploughmen. And some of these descendants were simple laborers. "

MY RESPONSE TO MARY:
(June 12, 2021)

"You come to shake off the haze of all this mystery and you are right. But a lot of genealogists find this story far-fetched and I try to be objective by looking so much for a roaster with the same energy."

15. Danielle
Facebook group: Genealogy (s)
(June 12, 2021)

In Picardy, in the Department of Aisne, there are many "Savoy-savoie- de Savoye" or "Valois-De Valois" without there being any link with a noble family.

MY RESPONSE TO DANIELLE:
(June 12, 2021)

Danielle, Excellent! Yes this place is now my target. Do we have parishes where we can target archival research for the 1620s? (Parishes where there are Savoys)?

6/13/2021 at 4:43 PM

I am a François Savoie descendant and have followed this discussion and the one that preceded it with great interest, especially the contributions of Bill Gabunia Debuque. I have compared my own GEDmatch kit (LM5137069) against all of those that have been identified, and I matched all the Savoies except Paul. Like others, I am curious at the seeming reluctance of Mr. Debuque to share his GEDmatch kit number. It would be nice to able to evaluate for oneself the matches that he has identified with Savoies. And I would like to see if I match him. I am also curious at the reluctance of whoever knows the identity of the putative documented member of the Savoy family who has contributed a DNA test to tell us exactly who that Savoy is.

For what it's worth, my attitude toward the question of whether or not François is the some of Tomasso is simply one of curiosity. Naturally, I would like for the story to be true, but I don't need for it to be true. I am a descendant of Anne Couvent, Catherine de Baillon, and Jeanne Le Marchand all three, so I already have more medieval royals in my family tree than one can shake a stick at.

In any case, Bill Debuque's matching any Acadian whatsoever to any degree would seem to be awfully uncanny if the matching Acadians do not share his European ancestry. And if Mr. Debuque's genealogical research on his own family is sound, isn't a descent from the Savoys the most plausible explanation for the match?

6/13/2021 at 6:39 PM

Jonathan,

This is simply amazing work! Thank you so much! While there are many possible locations identified, I have always believed that info about François, if it exists at all, would be somewhere in the triangle of Chambéry, Annecy, Hautecombe Abbey, and Aosta. That aside, please keep in mind that when François went to Acadia, he went as any other able-bodied man. He was listed as a “ploughman” because - how else would he be identified? Laborer, perhaps? Bastard Prince, certainly not. He performed the same back-breaking work as everyone else to provide for his family. Please also keep in mind the assumptions - rightly or wrongly - that may be implicit in how these events are described. For example, why would D’Aulney, or anyone else for that matter, know of François’ lineage - noble, bastard, or otherwise - when he made the trip to Acadia? In other words, he/they would have to have the knowledge of his possible noble lineage before they could record anything unusual about François’ circumstances in making the trip. In addition, the Thirty Years War began in approximately 1618, the costs associated with the war and the contemporaneous intra-family squabbling in the House of Savoy nearly bankrupted the duchy. Upon the death of Tommaso’s brother, Victor Amadeus I, in 1637, his widow, Christine of France, demanded that their four-year old son, Prince Hyacinth, be recognized as heir-apparent with Christine becoming regent until the Prince reached the age of majority. Tommaso disagreed allegedly claiming that François, regardless of legitimacy, was the oldest male heir and, therefore, was next in line. Christine, given her royal stature, won out - Prince Hyacinth died in 1638, and Christine remained regent until about 1660. (Politics and treachery are the backdrop that cannot be ignored in these circumstances). Thus, there was no path for François - other than perhaps titular - in the House of Savoy. Shortly thereafter, we know that François arrived in Acadia. This is a fairly common time line of events for those who theorize that François is Tommaso’s son. While I completely agree that there needs to be a paper trail to establish a connection between François and Tommaso, the circumstantial evidence is remarkably coincidental. Thanks again Jonathan for your hard work and keen interest in this mystery!! Adele

6/14/2021 at 2:51 AM

Many Thanks Diane,

As I mentioned, however, we can continue to repeat and repeat these same stories concerning a probable link between François and Thomas without bringing more concrete matters to study ... But we can also try to see all the possibles avenues including a typical family from the 17th century. You want to elaborate on Thomas de Savoie de Carignan ? That will interest me greatly if you come to present other clues, documentation(s) or archive(s) on the subject. If anyone knows how to access digital versions of this family's archives in Turin come forward. If you have some new things, it will be awsome.

However, I do not fall for the theory that Francis would have inherited anything. He was clearly a child out of wedlock and we must stop bringing him closer to Marie de Bourbon. Okay, the Savoie family had some issues but they did not leave their native land to become a plowman overnight. One need only study the lives of Thomas' children to realize that they still had good opportunities to live comfortably. Some had military and diplomatic careers and were still received at the court of the Sun King.

So for me, François was not at all a competitor to his plausible half-brothers and half-sisters. Nobles and "le Cabinet des titres" (Hozier example) very often mentioned the presence of illegitimates childrens in a family, but by chance, nothing about François.

I believe that Denis Beauregard's intervention should also be taken into account and that we must certainly take his statement with certain lightness but not forget all the expertise of this man for thirty years in Canadian genealogy. Especially since he is currently only devoting himself to projects including DNA and which he must know alot about the subject.

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