Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

Started by Joseph Bolton on Saturday, September 15, 2018
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6/14/2021 at 3:10 AM

And if it was registered in the census of 1671 that François was a plowman, it is because he was a plowman. He was not a notary, he was not at that time a soldier, he was not a captain, he was not a blacksmith, concretely and on paper, François was a plowman. Does this status take away all his chances of having been an illegitimate son, no. He could still have been a candidate to be a bastard son of Tomasso.

But here, I want to work with more concrete. As I mentioned I might not do more discoveries on my own but I will give it a try.

It is true that Denis Beauregard quickly jumps to the conclusion that François was not noble and that is where I agree. Neither does he provide any evidence for this claim ... But ... We really have to take into consideration his expertise in genealogy and DNA research.

I now believe and my source is Denis Beauregard's expertise and his statement, that the DNA conversation between Joseph Bolton and Bill Debuque is unfounded and fanciful.

For the moment I am drawing up a map as I said of the places where we could find Savoys in the 17th century in France.

Jean Savoie dit Valois, still perhaps provides an answer in his name. It is perhaps a key in the sense that this family was perhaps originally from the country of Valois and perhaps Francis passed this information on to his descendants. Many people, neutral in this research, share this opinion.

Here is a map of what was called the "Pays de Valois" in 1620 in France:

(There are several parishes including: Campiegne - Pons S.Maixance - Betizi - Creil - Senlis - Crepi - Nantezul - Meaux ect ...)

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valois_(r%C3%A9gion)#/media/Fichier...

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valois_(r%C3%A9gion)

6/14/2021 at 11:39 AM

Little news : I received today an email from Mr. Guillaume de Morant and he told me that my publication I shared on a good amount of genealogics groups gonna be publish on this website this week :

https://www.rfgenealogie.com/

Maybe it will help us to get more infos.

6/14/2021 at 11:52 AM

Johnathan: "I now believe and my source is Denis Beauregard's expertise and his statement, that the DNA conversation between Joseph Bolton and Bill Debuque is unfounded and fanciful."

Bill Debuque did a rather extensive analysis. On what basis are you stating that it "unfounded and fanciful?"

6/14/2021 at 7:26 PM

All is in the comment of Denis. You cant go further 8 generations ... And you are doing comparaisons at 13 generations and more. So your experience in DNA Joseph is more deep than Denis Beauregard who works in this field since many years ?

Private User
6/14/2021 at 8:55 PM

Not to mention using the *wrong type* of DNA and ignoring the explicit results from Y-DNA analysis that plainly states that Test Subject 1 (descendant of Francois Savoie) and Test Subject 2 (descendant of the House of Savoy) do not belong to the same male line.

I've seen this before, when Y-DNA results refute family lore. People who just can't give up their family lore fall back on partial and inadequate autosomal DNA analyses to "explain away" the ugly facts.

Sometimes there turns out to be a cuckoo in the nest, or more than one (e.g. Richard III vs the Somersets) - though it isn't necessarily obvious which cuckoo(s) and where.

Sometimes one or both lines are so thoroughly tested that there's no room for cuckoos. That's when Denial can be dialed up to 11....

6/14/2021 at 11:09 PM

And once again, we’re back to the “DNA doesn’t match” trope. I have repeatedly requested information regarding the identity of the alleged male descendent from the House of Savoy who furnished a DNA sample for comparison with that of an alleged descendent of François - whose identity apparently also remains a secret. Who are these people? To argue that a DNA analysis of samples collected from individuals who remain unidentified is indicative of absolutely nothing. If you can’t support your “conclusion” with facts; i.e., the identity of the individuals who provided the samples and their respective pedigrees at the very least, then please stop repeating a “conclusion” as if it were fact. Likewise, the venerated “8 generation” rule cuts both ways - if anything beyond eight generations is insufficient to prove a connection, then it cannot credibly or logically be used to disprove a connection. In other words, how are Bill Debuque’s results summarily disregarded out of hand because the connection exceeds eight generations, but readily accept at face value the mathematical impossibility of results from unknown individuals who cannot be any closer than eight generations either? You can’t.

As for Mr. Beauregard, I have the utmost respect for his expertise. I have referenced his work many times. However, producing DNA results for several groups of Savoie cousins and identifying them as matches to François and/or to each other is totally underwhelming. There are many thousands of records that document the Acadian Savoie lineage from François to the present. DNA correlation is lagniappe.

6/15/2021 at 2:10 AM

" Note also that it is impossible to validate anything further than 8 generations with autosomal DNA only. We are well beyond the precision of these tests. Here too, we should stop giving credit to false information."

- Denis Beauregard (In the case of Bill Debuque)

I believe that this excerpt from Denis Beauregard's comment answers your questions.
In any case, I hope so.

6/15/2021 at 2:20 AM

On the other hand, to remain neutral and always honest in my procedures, I researched this week again when I had seen the DNA test of the individual who descended from the Savoy line, this information has disappeared from the web.

So I pushed the research and this information can no longer be taken into consideration. I had actually seen a descendant of this line tested EL-117 but it seems very suspicious to me if this result has been erased.

Today we can stop this assertion. For the moment the haplogroup by male line of Thomas de Savoie Carignan remains UNKNOWN.

But for my part I do not give credit to the DNA stories that would link Bill to Acadians only because they share European individuals in common and also with the advice and expertise of Denis Beauregard.

In all neutrality and where I do not necessarily agree with Denis Beauregard, this does not forever wipe out the chances of linking Thomas to François but I see it as a warning. We must remain absolutely NEUTRAL at all times.

6/15/2021 at 2:27 AM

The only DNA information that we have that will not be useful to us, the descendants of François, is information from the father of Thomas Savoie de Carignan and his wife.

So the direct line descendants of women from Charles-Emmanuel I Duke of Savoy and therefore the subject, his wife, Catherine-Michelle of Austria.

DNA Connections:

It may be possible to confirm family relationships with Carlo Emanuele I by comparing test results with other carriers of his Y-chromosome or his mother's mitochondrial DNA. However, there are no known yDNA test-takers in his direct paternal line.

Mitochondrial DNA test-takers in the direct maternal line:

Philip (Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg) Mountbatten Find Relationship: Mitochondrial DNA Test HVR1 and HVR2, haplogroup H1af, MitoYDNA ID Z10699

Alexandra Feodorovna (Hesse-Darmstadt) Romanov Find Relationship: Mitochondrial DNA Test Full Sequence, haplogroup H1af2, MitoYDNA ID Z10396

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Savoia-20

6/15/2021 at 2:30 AM

So conclusion in all neutrality:

- The conversation about DNA links between Bill Debuque and Joseph Bolton proves absolutely nothing.

- The famous EL-117 group from the Savoys of Europe is no longer valid information because the sources have disappeared. So the patrilineal haplogroup of the Savoys is well and truly unknown.

6/15/2021 at 4:51 AM

CHAPTER I - THE COUNTRY OF VALOIS

Jean Savoie dit Valois was the great-grandson of
François Savoie and Catherine Lejeune. Perhaps, through his name, he was trailing the history of his homeland.

Le Valois [1], also known as Pays du Valois [2], is a natural region of France, located in the former Île de France north of Paris, on the current departments of Oise and Aisne, in the Hauts-de-France.

The Valois corresponds to the south-eastern quarter of the department of Oise with an adjacent part of the Aisne. It is located between Soissonnais to the north, Champagne to the east, Brie and the Pays de France to the south, Beauvaisis to the west.

It first had as its capital Vez (in Latin Vadum), then, from the medieval boom until the end of the Ancien Régime, Crépy-en-Valois.
Its other main towns are La Ferté-Milon, Villers-Cotterêts, Senlis and Compiègne.

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valois_(r%C3%A9gion)

The Map of 1620 gives us several parishes:

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valois_(r%C3%A9gion)#/media/Fichier...

PAYS DE VALOIS (municipalities)

The names and departments were a
corrected to correspond to our time.

- Meaux (department of Seine-et-Marne)
- Soissons (department of Aisne)
- Crepy-en-Valois (department of Oise)
- Senlis (department of Oise)
- Nateuil-le-Haudouin (department of Oise)
- Villers-Cotterêts (department of Aisne)
- La Ferté-Milon (department of Aisne)
- Château-Thierry (department of Aisne)
- La Ferté-sous-Jouarre (department of Seine-et-Marne)
- Lizy-sur-Ourcq (department of Seine-et-Marne)
- Fère-en-Tardenois (department of Aisne)
- Compiègne (department of Oise)
- Béthisy-Saint-Pierre (department of Oise)
- Pont-Sainte-Maxence (department of Oise)
- Creil (department of Oise)

DEPARTMENTAL ARCHIVES
(PAYS DE VALOIS) - Access the online archives - quick links:

1. Department of Oise:

http://archives.oise.fr/archives-en-ligne/etat-civil/

2. Department of Aisne:

https://archives.aisne.fr/archive/recherche/etatcivil/n:11

3. Department of Seine-et-Marne

http://archives-en-ligne.seine-et-marne.fr/mdr/index.php/rechercheT...

6/15/2021 at 4:52 AM

CHAPTER 2 - THE SAVOIE IN FRANCE

ETHYMOLOGY OF SAVOIE - SAVOY - SAVOIS
(On Genenanet - Which parishes stand out everywhere in France for the period 1600)

Parishes can be repeated under other names

Attention: This represents a group of parishes where Savoy - Savois - Savoie are present in the trees of geneanet members.
So we must expect to find multiple copyists of the famous François - Thomas de Savoie link from Carignan. This is undoubtedly why we find Turin on numerous occasions.
Some information must be sourced, without generalizing, but a LOT is not.

IN GENERAL IN EUROPE

• Châteauroux / (28 individuals)
• Huismes (15 individuals)
• Brushes (12 individuals)
• Contracts (11 individuals)
• Arleuf (10 individuals)
• Saint-Jean-de-la-Ruelle (23 individuals)
• Montauban (17 individuals)
• Châteauroux-Saint-Martin (11 individuals)
• Leeuwarden (11 individuals)
• Bauche (9 individuals)
• Sassetot-le-Mauconduit (8 individuals)
• Torino (254 individuals)

• Turin (234 individuals)
• Paris (220 individuals)
• Turin, Piedmont (79 individuals)
• France (62 individuals)
• Plymouth (51 individuals)
• Ochey (48 individuals)
• Saint-Amand, Toul (48 individuals)
• Savigliano (47 individuals)
• Rivoli (46 individuals)
• Savigliano, Piedmont (44 individuals)
• Modena (43 individuals)

********************************

CHAPTER 3:

NEXT TARGETS LINKED TO THE "DIT VALOIS"
MORE TARGETED IN THE COUNTRY OF VALOIS:

I. Soissons

& At the limit outside in the information collected:

II. Cilly (Cilly is a French commune located in the department of Aisne, in the Hauts-de-France region).

III. Vézilly (Vézilly is a French commune located in the department of Aisne, in the Hauts-de-France region)

IV. Mauregny-en-Haye (Mauregny-en-Haye is a French commune located in the department of Aisne, in the Hauts-de-France region).

V. Bézu st Germain (Bézu-Saint-Germain is a French commune located in the department of Aisne, in the Hauts-de-France region).

VI. Festieux (Festieux [fetiœ] is a French commune located in the department of Aisne, in the Hauts-de-France region).

VII. Senlis

VIII. Compiegne

*******************************

6/15/2021 at 4:53 AM

CHAPTER 4 - PARISHES PROPOSED BY MEMBERS OF MULTIPLE GENEALOGICAL GROUPS (FOLLOWING MY REQUEST FOR HELP)
- GENERAL GEOGRAPHY

* 1. Le Pays de Valois (suggestion given by readers following the verified history of Jean Savoie dit Valois). SEE CHAPTER 3

* 2. Fismes (Fismes [fim] is a French commune located in the Marne department in the Grand Est region).

* 3. Cilly is a French commune located in the department of Aisne, in the Hauts-de-France region.

* 4. Vauxrenard, for the period 1600 in 1803. They are mainly plowmen.
(Vauxrenard is a French commune, located in the Rhône department).

* 5. Quincié, for the period 1600 in 1803. They are mainly plowmen. (Quincié-en-Beaujolais is a French commune, located in the department of Rhône).

* 6. Fleurie, for the period 1600 in 1803. They are mainly plowmen. (Fleurie is a French commune, located in the Rhône department).

* 7. Italy (country)

* 8. Vézilly (Vézilly is a French commune located in the department of Aisne, in the Hauts-de-France region) SEE CHAPTER 3

* 9. Mauregny-en-Haye (Mauregny-en-Haye is a French commune located in the department of Aisne, in the Hauts-de-France region). SEE CHAPTER 3

* 10. Bézu st Germain (Bézu-Saint-Germain is a French commune located in the department of Aisne, in the Hauts-de-France region). SEE CHAPTER 3

* 11. Festieux (Festieux [fetiœ] is a French commune located in the department of Aisne, in the Hauts-de-France region). SEE CHAPTER 3

* 12. Vienne (Vienne is a town located in the south-east of France, at the confluence of the Rhône and Gère rivers, in the Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region in the Isère department).

* 13. Turin - Savoy - Italy (Si François is the son of Thomas de Savoie Carignan).

* 14. Isneauville (Seine-Maritime Department).
Isneauville is a French commune located in the department of Seine-Maritime in the Normandy region. Louis Savoy & Marie-Pierre - Denis, their son, married in 1677 to Marguerite LAURENT or LAURENCE

*****************************

Conclusion: So here is a summary of our targets for now. That's a lot of parishes.

Step number 2: Bring out all the François Savoie born between 1618 and 1625 in these parishes.

6/15/2021 at 5:57 AM

70 % of the archives are not available online for the period 1620... So... we have some clues but we cant go further for the moment.

Private User
6/15/2021 at 7:42 AM

Jonathan, you invariably put the hyphen in the wrong place. It comes after the E but BEFORE the L. E-L117. There is no "EL" haplogroup.

There is some question whether or not it has been subsumed back into E-M35 (the original identification).

As to whether this is or is not the House of Savoy haplotype...?

6/15/2021 at 8:42 AM

Indeed, if the putative Savoy tester cannot be identified, it’s hard to take the test results seriously as evidence. And I don’t think anyone is arguing that Bill Debuque’s match is “proof” by itself of Savoy descent, but rather that it lends credence to family lore, provided that his own genealogy is accurate. And pace Denis Beauregard’s assertions about the utility of autosomal DNA beyond eight generations, I will observe that I have DNA matches with individuals whose MRCA with me is no more recent than the 1600s (my wife, for instance) and that they are of a similar faintness to what we’re talking about here. I grant that maybe those matches are all IBS and the shared ancestor is coincidental, but I think it equally possible that the DNA and the paper genealogy are coinciding.

6/15/2021 at 9:08 AM

I would just like to remind everyone that not so long ago, Catherine Lejeune was a "Princess" Mikmaq in all this folklore and afterwards DNA really spoke afterwards to attribute the group to her. European: by female descent only
Haplogroup / Haplogroup: U6a7a1a.

But suddenly we tried to relocate this Amerindian princess as possibly being a grandmother of Catherine Lejeune, despite that, in all logic, the U6a7a1a (European) group is only transmitted by women.

You can believe what you want or who you want, but I tell you quite frankly, keep in mind that François was perhaps also the son of a roaster.

It's good to create stories, but currently nothing allows Joseph Bolton to have so much certainty and to declare that the work is done.

This case is really not resolved yet. We can then add layers of eternal assumptions about belonging to the high nobility where we can try to see all the fields of possibilities.

I rarely see any detractors here in this discussion mentioning that Francois could have been the son of a roaster. I do not see a panoply of people either bringing searchable archives ... We know this oral tradition, is it true? is it wrong? No one really knows, but it's time to broaden our vision to find more clues.

For my part, I wanted to bring all the possibilities with sources without falling into fabulations or continuing to feed folk chapters without any source.

If one day I add Henri II of France and Catherine de Medici in my tree, the source will be not : Rumors from Acadia.

6/15/2021 at 12:36 PM

To Jonathan's point, let me be the first to say that, of course, the overwhelming statistical likelihood is that any given immigrant to Acadia was a roturier (what I assume he means by "roaster"), and that it is a commonplace of family lore in North America that some ancestor shrouded in the mists of antiquity was the long-lost son or daughter of a great dynasty, either European or Native American. The "Cherokee princess" tale, for instance, is remarkably common in American families, and there was a substantial industry here in the late 19th century of fabricating fancy genealogies for gullible (or even actively dissembling) clients. Jackie Kennedy's immediate Bouvier forebears were famously rooked into believing they were of noble French origin. Her mother falsely claimed descent from the Lees of Virginia. So it would be entirely in keeping with all that for our Savoies at some point to have started spinning yarns about descent from the Savoys of Piedmont and a Mic'Maq "princess."

And yet . . . Stranger things have happened than an exotic family tale turning out to be true and the most interesting parts of it remaining entirely hidden until someone starts digging. Such has certainly been the case in my own family.

6/15/2021 at 3:36 PM

What are the evidences ? Show me evidence.

I dont have evidence for dismiss the nobility in the absolut but you still have no evidence about all this story you present there as a fact.

6/15/2021 at 3:37 PM

I showed you Catherine Lejeune DNA proove and you continue with the Mikmaq princess... Seriously ? 😅

6/15/2021 at 3:38 PM

And be relative to Mikmaq okay but a " Mikmaq Princess " stop it guys, please... First Mikmaq didnt have "Princess" 😅😆

6/15/2021 at 3:49 PM

The Micmac (or Mi'kmaq) people have never had princesses. Micmac leaders were elected by a council of clan leaders. Their sons and daughters did not inherit a throne or anything like that. So there is no native Micmac word for princess.

6/15/2021 at 3:50 PM

So can we stop ? Maybe Disney could find you a job 🙂

6/15/2021 at 4:07 PM

If you're responding to me, I think you misunderstand. I am not defending the Mic'Maq princess story. Au contraire. Neither am I insisting that the Savoy story must be the truth.

Private User
6/15/2021 at 4:28 PM

If we don't have *any* verified DNA evidence from the House of Savoy, of *any* type, then neither can autosomal DNA be used to prove or disprove anything.

What the autosomal results are probably showing is endogamous results from a group that stayed in the same area and intermarried for generations. That's a very common effect, actually, but it doesn't prove anything about connections outside the kin-group.

Jonathan, Fred White n'a pas dit que Catherine Lejeune était une "Micmac princess", il a dit qu'elle *n'était pas* une "Micmac princess". Mais des gens enfin veulent le croire.

(Pardon my French, haven't used it much since high school.)

6/15/2021 at 4:47 PM

Accept my apologies, Fred.

I was sure to had reading again a story about Mikmaq.

In fact, indeed, we cant say nothing for the DNA of males line of Thomas de Savoie Carignan.

We know the matrilineal DNA of Catherine LeJeune.

But I tried very hard to push for having more clues...
I just got the surname Valois for Jean Savoie dit Valois in Louisiana, I got nothing in the correspondances of Charles Daulnay and Charles St-Étienne de La Tour, and we got alot of parishs who could have Savoy family in the past but no access to the parishs of 1620...

Maybe when the article will be publish this week I will got more infos.. Its like a fishing line in the water now.

Sorry again Fred my english can be terrible.
And dont worry Maven your french is really good.

6/15/2021 at 4:52 PM

PS : We know too the DNA group of François

But I keep my point about the statement of Denis Beauregard in this affaire. Bill Debuque is certainly a good guy and I dont think he had bad intentions to share this but he is not the Rosetta Stone..

So I will keep an eye if Guillaume de Morant will publish for real the article in :

https://www.rfgenealogie.com/

And my email is in this article so if I receive good informations I will share with you.

There is the email of Guillaume de Morant :

Yesterday

Bonjour,
pour information, je vais relayer bientôt votre appel sur François Savoie sur le site internet de la Revue française de généalogie. Un article sera publié cette semaine.

Bien cordialement,

Guillaume de Morant
journaliste
La Revue Française de Généalogie
www.rfgenealogie.com

6/15/2021 at 10:17 PM

Jonathan, no apologies required! I look forward to the possibility of your article opening some doors in this investigation.

6/15/2021 at 10:18 PM

Et permettez-moi d'ajouter que je parle français.

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