Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

Started by Joseph Bolton on Saturday, September 15, 2018
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6/16/2021 at 2:21 AM

Merci Fred, je vous tiens informé !

Ouais pour être honnête, j'en ai marre parfois d'utiliser le traducteur 😄 Mais bon, je veux quand même respecter la langue officielle de cette discussion.

Bonne journée à tous.

6/16/2021 at 4:52 AM

I can’t thank you enough Jonathan. I am so very grateful for, and appreciative of, your interest in this matter. Whatever information is gained from your efforts is truly appreciated. Thank gain. Adele

6/16/2021 at 6:15 AM

My pleasure, really. Thank you Diane 🙂

6/18/2021 at 2:14 AM

We got the article release today :

RFG

https://www.rfgenealogie.com/infos/les-savoie-d-amerique-sont-ils-l...

So if I got any news guys, I will let you know.

6/18/2021 at 10:24 AM

Felicitations, Jonathan! Nous attendons avec impatience une réponse quelle qu'elle soit.

6/23/2021 at 8:35 PM

For those who may be interested, there appears to be at least one scholarly study of the Savoy family's approach to illegitimate children. See here: https://books.openedition.org/irhis/1215?lang=en

6/23/2021 at 8:57 PM

The main thing I pick up in skimming the study above is that illegitimate children of the Savoy children are reasonably well-documented--and were well taken care of and often performed important political functions--when the mothers were of a certain social rank, belonging to families that might form a useful alliance. But what of children they might have had by women in menial positions? I guess that's the scenario in which I can imagine the family lore around our François being most plausible, based on the few known facts of his life. If the child's existence was in some sense an embarrassment, then I could see his never acquiring literacy and getting little more from papa than a one-way ticket to Acadia.

6/23/2021 at 9:21 PM

I will add that I find it odd that so many illegitimate children are recorded for Tommaso Francesco's father and none for him. None? Really?

6/25/2021 at 4:36 AM

Well its difficult to compare the comportments between father and son. One of the best example I can give you is Louis XV of France who had alot of relations out of bedlock and some illegitimate childs too. But his son and grand son Louis XVI of France had no bastards and was loyal in their unions. So yes, maybe the father of Thomas had some illegitimates childs but his son was not repeating this. So without new documentations, its again speculation.

For the moment, I receive no more information on my side.

6/25/2021 at 10:09 AM

Touché.

6/27/2021 at 3:16 PM

Fred White Tommaso was the youngest of the Duke’s five legitimate sons, and was one of twenty-one acknowledged children by Charles Emmanuel. Although he had his title, Tommaso had no realistic path forward to wealth or power in the House of Savoy. He left Turin at the ago of sixteen and became a soldier, returning to Turin infrequently. There would have been no reason to record any illegitimate children in his early years because there was no path to power through Tommaso. Of course, that changed in the mid-1730s - but that’s an entirely different story!!

6/28/2021 at 11:14 AM

Well, what I've been able to read of Savoy family history suggests that illegitimate children by women from families of a certain social station certainly would have been recorded and seen to. At a minimum, they would have entered the priesthood or a convent. And this would have been the case regardless of the father's birth order. But since, as you remind us, Tommaso's early adulthood was a highly mobile one, it seems not unreasonable to entertain the idea that he could have had illegitimate children by women of a sufficiently low social station that they would not have been acknowledged. He might, for that matter, not have known of them--or not all of them.

6/29/2021 at 11:14 PM

As I ponder the unlikelihood of any helpful paper trail emerging around François Savoie's origins, it occurs to me that there might be a tactful way of inducing a male-line House of Savoy member to take a Y-DNA test. The American Foundation of Savoy Orders (see here: https://www.facebook.com/AmSavoyFoundation), an umbrella group for members of Savoyard orders of chivalry, just might be able to communicate on Savoie descendants' behalf with someone in the Savoy family with enough charity or sense of humor to help, especially if the DNA test were provided gratis. It also occurs to me that no one is really more than a few degrees removed from anyone anymore, and that one of us might simply know someone who knows one of them and could get it done that way. At any rate, Y-DNA (assuming no false paternity events in the intermediate generations) is the only thing that will really resolve this mystery.

6/29/2021 at 11:20 PM

I should add that the heir to the headship of the House of Savoy appears to be a relatively informal person, inasmuch as he operates a restaurant in Los Angeles: https://www.lacucinaitaliana.com/trends/news/prince-of-venice-las-n...

Before that, it was a food truck, I believe. Surely the right person could just go buy one of his pizzas, chat him up a bit, and take it from there.

Private User
6/30/2021 at 6:11 AM

Somebody *did* report Y-DNA tests on a male descendant of the House of Savoy (which one not specified, but there aren't a lot of them any more) and one or more male descendants of Francois Savoie. Not a match. (The test results seem to have disappeared from the Web, or gotten deeply buried by later stuff.)

6/30/2021 at 6:37 AM

Fred White, I prefer to keep no ancestors for François and Catherine than making this kidnapping 😅👍

6/30/2021 at 6:41 AM

Yes Maven, you are right, I tried to find this DNA sample but its disapear. Maybe the informations could have been not right or the laws in France about DNA make this info disapear.

Well, for my side I had no answers at all, no more logical informations. The lack of documents in Acadia is really the thing closing all issue for a conclusion in this investigation.

But I will not speculate more about this subject. You want a good tree, with good sources and fiability ? So dont put ancestors to François Savoie et Catherine Lejeune for the moment.

6/30/2021 at 7:32 AM

If You have other french canadian ancestors and if you want to add absolutely a royal lineage with good sources in your tree ? There is some good candidats :

- Anne Leneuf du Hérisson, wife of Antoine Desrosiers (Illegitimate daughter of Michel Leneuf) - (Royals ancestors : Henri Ist of England & Henri Ist of France). (Sources : Francogene, habitant.org)

- Catherine de Baillon, wife of Jacques Miville (Royal ancestor - Philippe II Augustus of France).
(Sources : Francogene, habitant.org)

- Anne Couvent, wife of Amiot (Royals ancestors - Henry III of England & Louis VIII of France)
(Sources : Francogene, habitant.org).

- Étienne de Bragelongne - his illegitimate daugther : Marie Anne Bragelone (Royal ancestor "probably" by some of my researchs - Louis VI of France).

- Marie & Marguerite Boileau - (By my researchs cause i bring an exclusive document about Jeanne de Portebise - Thanks to Stéphane Delanoue - futur project in work with the collaboration of John.P.Dulong (Royal ancestor : Henry III of England).

- Pierre Legardeur de Repentigny (By his mother Catherine de Corday) - (By some researchs already on the net and prooven gateway by me with enough documentations - In collaboration right now with John.P.Dulong) - (Royals ancestors - Louis VII of France & Henry II of England).

- Suzanne D'Ailleboust (cousin of Catherine de Baillon in "de Marle" family) - (Royal ancestor - Louis VI of France). (Sources : Francogene).

And you have more cases there if you wanna see all the list : (only in green)

https://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/qrd30.htm

The more next to our period kings and queens we can found with that reference and for the moment are Louis IX of France & Marguerite de Provence.

And you know by who ? Charles-Étienne de la Tour. (Acadia).

6/30/2021 at 2:05 PM

I'm a descendant of Anne Couvent, Catherine de Baillon, and Jeanne Le Marchand, so it's not that I am particularly in need of royal descents, and I would be content to write off the tradition around François Savoie as wishful thinking, were it not for the uncanniness of the match with Bill Gabunia Debuque together with his reported European ancestry. I recognize what are currently thought to be the limits of autosomal DNA testing in establishing shared ancestry, but my understanding is that even small segments that are classified as "identical by state" still indicate shared ancestry, just not within a timeframe that can typically be captured by genealogical records, so I don't think we can wave away Bill's match as irrelevant on that basis, even if it is not proof positive. Proof positive would be a Y-DNA match with a male line descendant of the House of Savoy. I was not implying that kidnapping, literal or figurative, would be the way to achieve that, but rather a friendly, humble, personal approach to a member of family who might be willing to humor us. He would have nothing to lose. We're talking about just one more potential among myriad documented bastards in their family tree.

6/30/2021 at 5:49 PM

Yes but with no documents... So why talking about nothing. And Denis Beauregard is in DNA projects since about 10 years, so I thinks he knows better the subject than us.. (He is in genealogical DNA projects right now at full time and he told me that).

Private User
7/1/2021 at 1:32 PM

In regards to the missing Y-DNA test, there's still a result for a member of the House of Savoy on FamilyTreeDNA here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy?iframe=yresults
Supposedly, a descendant of Carlo Alberto Di Savoia Carignano has y-DNA E-M35. We don't know who tested but the evidence still exists.

7/1/2021 at 3:18 PM

Of course, if that Y-DNA test-taker's pedigree is legit, and if there are no Y-DNA matches to him among male-line descendants of François Savoie, then the discussion is over. Does FTDNA make it possible to contact that individual and find out more about his lineage?

7/1/2021 at 3:21 PM

I believe one would need to be a member of the project and the project administrator would facilitate / mediate comparisons. What is the haplogroup for Francois?

7/1/2021 at 4:30 PM

According to Denis Beauregard, the haplogroup for François’ descendants is R1b-M269>Z367. You can find this info on Francogene.

7/1/2021 at 5:26 PM

So it sounds like it’s back to Denis Beauregard to explain details of the comparison? A living person’s DNA is of course confidential, but he could perhaps attest to / describe test validity while letting project administrators maintain privacy?

7/1/2021 at 10:42 PM

Could the project manager not simply let the gentleman know we're eager to talk to him and explain why?

7/1/2021 at 10:49 PM

Assuming this--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Albert_of_Sardinia#Family_and... is the Carlo Alberto di Savoia Carignano the gentleman is identifying as his earliest known ancestor for the purposes of the project, it would seem the lines of direct male descent to the present day are quite few.

7/1/2021 at 10:53 PM

All of Carlo Alberto's son Prince Ferdinando's male lines appear to have failed within a generation or two, so unless illegitimacy is part of the picture, our Italian Project friend would have to be a descendant of Victor Emmanuel, first king of Italy, and from there . . .

7/1/2021 at 11:18 PM

The possibilities for legitimate direct-male-line descent from Victor Emmanuel are not
terribly numerous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Emmanuel_II_of_Italy#Family_an...

7/2/2021 at 4:39 AM

I’m not vouching for the DNA results that Denis Beauregard attributes to François’ descendants. What I can say is that the cited haplotype is identified with Italy. And to complicate matters further, among Italians there has long been speculation that Vittorio Emmanuel II is not the legitimate son of Carlo Alberto. What is perhaps more well known is that Vittorio Emmanuel II had multiple mistresses and numerous illegitimate children. That said, it’s additional speculation that potentially casts further doubt on the usefulness of DNA in this situation.

Worse still, and I hate to say it, but if you are inclined to take the position of the “deathbed confession” naysayers, what proof do we have that François is a Savoie at all? I know that François is my 7th GGF, but the lack of documentary evidence of a connection to Tommaso also highlights the lack of documentary evidence that he is a member of any Savoie family - ploughman or royalty. I’ve traced many of my Acadian ancestors back to their European origins, but not François. This is frustrating beyond words . . .

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