Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

Started by Joseph Bolton on Saturday, September 15, 2018
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Private User
12/8/2021 at 8:07 AM

Erica, this is a pretty good list of the French Canadian Royal gateways:
Note, its mostly Quebecois vs. Acadian. Quebec and Acadia are practically two different populations that didn't intermingle much until after the Grand Derangement. (mid 18th Century). So, its much more likely to have a royal gateway through a Quebecois descendant than an Acadian descendant. And, Mary Lewis is more likely to find a royal connection through her mother's line (Fortin) than her father's (Despres).

12/8/2021 at 8:42 AM

Ok, I couldn't see the records that they had.

12/8/2021 at 8:50 AM

There is only one “record” in all those ancestry trees - a screen shot map of property in New Brunswick. We know more from looking at George Sutton’s many descendants, several who are clearly Catholic, which suggests an Ireland origin is more likely and the Gloucestershire baptismal record not applicable. I don’t know of any “noble” Suttons who went to Ireland with lumbermen descendants in Minnesota, although I suppose anything is possible.

12/8/2021 at 8:58 AM

Ah - here we go.

Research done shows an Irish origin which would be correct. His Great Grand Father Claims Irish origin in a memorial of George Sutton. These were pattions for a land grant. Mark D Sutton is in position of copy of the grants.

12/8/2021 at 11:05 AM

Private User "
Raymond Lafleur

See there you go again twisting facts. I never said that Fred and I were descended from a male Savoia other than Francois. Mathilde De Savoy is our distant great-grandmother"

It's my mother who's father is a direct male Savoie. My Aunt Rita of the Oral Tradition fame is a daughter of a direct Savoie male line. I think that is one of the reasons why the story persisted in our family because of the name connection. And no, Raymond Lafleur, she didn't make it up in 1972 or read about it in Louis Savoy's book.

Erica Howton Is there anyway we can send out a general announcement for others who have the oral tradition in their families to send in their stories and collect them? Thank you Private User for sharing your story.

12/8/2021 at 11:40 AM

You could use “contact manager” from profile. Ask - is there an oral tradition of origins - don’t give them ideas! The data collection needs to includes details: who, what, when, where, and by whom. You’re going to get a lot of “read it on the internet” otherwise.

Private User
12/8/2021 at 11:43 AM

When this discussion began 3 years ago, Sharon Doubell, one of the Geni curators, made some very important points in a series of comments:

<<<False connections on Geni are far worse for research - including DNA research - than no connections.>>>

<<<<*Bill's family tree isn't well built out on geni, except for this line - and the 3 % of European ancestry at this generational distance isn't necessarily going to translate into one family only (I don't think?) >>>>

<<<you are assuming that there will be only one possible family line of Savoyes. Something we do not know is true. And you are assuming you can disprove relationships at generational distances that are impossible to use to support such assumptions.>>>

The points she makes here were largely ignored. And it shows in the discussion. We have folks who have grossly incomplete trees, and the lines they do show, many are false, or have the weakest of documented evidence.

We see attempts to claim Person x is a descendant of Francois Savoie and I'm a descendant of the House of Savoy and I have a 3 CM match to Person X, so Francois Savoie must be the son of Tommaso di Savoia!!

Its so far down the rabbit hole, it makes any sane genealogist's head spin.

Here's one of the biggest problems with this logic. Your lines are incomplete. The simplest example is in the case of the Acadian Savoie. Acadians have at least 12 PROVEN royal gateways. Amongst them are d'ABBADIE, St-Etienne de la Tour, de Roeux et Corcelles Motin, d'Amours.

Aside from the Acadian Royal Gateways, we have significantly more Quebec Royal gateways summarized on Denis Beauregard's web site. And while Quebec and Acadia were largely two separate populations, there was significant integration after the Grand Derangement in the mid 1700s. For example, I have both Quebec and Acadian ancestors. Denis Beauregard estimates that about 80% of current day Quebecois can claim to be descendants of Charlemagne through the many royal gateways that have been proven.

So, if you have ancestors from Acadia or Quebec, chances are you are connected to one and probably more than one of these royal gateways. If you are a descendant of Francois Savoie, its quite likely you are also a descendant of one of the Acadian gateways as well with the limited founding fathers population and pedigree collapse which is overwhelmingly common in that population.

Until you've documented and proven all your Quebec and Acadian lines, you cannot claim the one French Canadian ancestor you have documented is the distant cousin of another European ancestor at the exclusion of all your other possible Quebec and Acadian ancestors.

I believe this problem is very evident in this 3 year discussion. I am a descendant of Francois Savoie of Acadia. I am a very distant cousin to the House of Savoy through Louis VII's wife's mother. That does not mean Francois Savoie of Acadia is related to the House of Savoy. Many people are making this same mistake starting at the very beginning of this discussion 3 years ago. The reason the two are not related is that I'm related to the House of Savoy through at least two of Quebec's royal gateways - Catherine de Baillon and Anne Couvent. The proven line goes up to Louis VII of France and thus to Umberto II di Savoia in the 11th Century and then down to Tommaso di Savoia in the early 17th Century. I cannot conclude that Francois Savoie of Acadia is related to the House of Savoy because I'm related to the House of Savoy from other lines. And I am not unique in this situation. Many, many North American French descendants have very similar if not identical ancestry as I have.

Private User
12/8/2021 at 11:56 AM

John Bolton, <<<<Erica Howton Is there anyway we can send out a general announcement for others who have the oral tradition in their families to send in their stories and collect them? Thank you Mary Lewis for sharing your story.>>>

Why is that necessary. You previously claimed to speak to several descendants from Canada, New England and Louisiana who have all made the claim.

You were asked several times to document those discussions, with names, specifics. You ignored the request. Now you want to poll the world?

12/8/2021 at 1:10 PM

This talks about some Suttons in Ireland. Doubt it if it helps any... but what the heck.

Private User
12/8/2021 at 5:26 PM

Private User

And whats wrong with wanting to poll the world? Are you afraid of what the results might be? You are exceedingly vocal against anything that doesn't fit your narrative. You are driven only by a single mindset, and you seem to lack the capacity to observe anything from an objective standpoint.

If evidence proves that Francois is indeed not a Savoy, then I will accept that conclusion as fact. As of yet no such evidence has surfaced. Why is it so difficult for you to consider the possibility that the oral tradition is true? Do you seriously believe that the thousands of our cousins who do believe in the oral tradition, are so maleable that they are incapable of independent thought? Geneologists are not perfect, they are human, just like the rest of us. If you wish to take their word as holy doctrine then that is your choice, but don't go around trying to discourage the rest of us from thinking for ourselves. Try taking a trip down the rabbit hole sometime, you might learn something.

Although we may have differences of opinion, we share the same goal, and that is to find the truth.

Private User
12/8/2021 at 5:38 PM

There's nothing wrong with polling the world. I was asking why it was necessary since he claimed he'd spoken to many people across North America who share the folklore. He simply needed to document who these individuals are, by name, what are the specifics of the family legend, who they heard it from and when. He's repeatedly ignored those requests.

What happened to all the Suttons in your line? Your lines seem to have changed dramatically since yesterday.

Private User
12/8/2021 at 5:57 PM

Private User

You can talk to Erica about that one. She she stated earlier that she made some changes.

Private User
12/8/2021 at 5:58 PM

Mary, yesterday, you were a direct descendant of Mathilde di Savoia, Queen Consort of Spain. Now you're 1st cousin, 25X removed?? What's happened? Also, I'm looking at this new line. It looks correct all the way up to Louise Creste, verified through PRDH as well as After that, it starts to look really dubious. For example, Johanne Charpentier is born 7 years after her father died.

12/8/2021 at 6:34 PM

On the Sutton line, I followed this study:

The Canada side on Geni looks fine, although I’m sure it can be better documented. But this fellow is the “tree top.”

George Sutton

He had been linked as a Gloucestershire baptism to a County Kent family. Neither hold up. The County Kent family has no visible links to the Suttons of Nottinghamshire.

Sir William Sutton, of Aram

Private User
12/8/2021 at 6:42 PM

Mary, looking at this a bit deeper, the line unravels after Louise Creste. First, (the go-to site for extending lines from Quebec to France, shows she indeed married Jean Pignuet. While the searchers couldn't find a marriage record, they indeed found the marriage contract.

Your line shows her parents as Nicolas Creste and Jehanne Charpentier. I believe the marriage contract mentioned above mentions her father Nicolas, but no mother is mentioned.

There's a discussion about it here:

and here:

Along with the source document.

Also, the master profile for Louise Creste shows no parents but cites the fichierorigine file.
Louise Creste

Private User
12/8/2021 at 6:45 PM

Erica Howton, re: Suttons. I agree. The Sutton line was really shaky, even early on. I could not validate parents for Amanda Sutton. Their were no source documents and the real deal killer was the census of 1881 for Amanda Sutton's parents did not list Amanda in the household. She would have been about 10. No birth record. No baptismal record. No marriage record to confirm her parents names. So when I went back to post that finding, the entire Sutton line seemed to have disappeared. LOL

Private User
12/8/2021 at 6:55 PM

Private User

Erica can attest that I personally have not changed anything in the Sutton line in the last month or so. If I did I would assume that such activity would be logged.

Private User
12/8/2021 at 7:06 PM

Mary, I didn't accuse you of changing anything. I was just shocked that it was so dramatically different than what you posted last night and had no idea what had happened.

12/8/2021 at 8:54 PM

Je vais écrire ceci en français pour me faciliter la tâche. Ayant lu les derniers commentaires, vous vous doutez bien que côté opinion sur le sujet, je me range évidemment dans le camp de Raymond Lafleur pour ce qui est de l'inquiétante manière selon laquelle certains déclarent ici la filiation certaine entre Thomas de Savoie Carignan et François Savoie.

On a aussi cité récemment John P Dulong et ayant travaillé sur deux articles à ses côtés cette année et ayant abordé brièvement le sujet, je peux vous dire que la tradition orale, malgré toute l'honnêteté et les croyances de vos familles respectives, n'est pas suffisament documentée pour être prise en considération afin d'établir une filiation sérieuse et acceptable.

Si nous quittons temporairement les désirs de grandes noblesses de certaines personnes ici, et je rappelle que je suis un descendant trois fois de cet acadien, l'identité des parents de François Savoie reste un mystère intéressant.

C'est ce mystère justement que j'ai tenté d'investiguer avec vous à mes côtés en apportant différentes pistes dans certaines archives en France. Mais même en vous communiquant les liens internet des correspondances de Charles Daulnay, des contrats d'engagements originaux de La Rochelle et j'en passe, personne ne semblaient intéressé à investiguer de cette manière.

Je me souviens que certaines personnes de cette discussion préféraient continuer la rédaction de commentaires hypothétiques, folkloriques et complétement absurdes au lieu de se mettre réellement au travail et lire de vrais documents, ces vrais témoins de l'histoire.

Mary Lewis a mit beaucoup d'effort dans ses recherches d'ADN et ce même si son niveau n'était peut-être pas suffisant en la matière. Qui suis-je pour la blâmer ? Mes connaissances en ADN sont encore moins avancées. Ma force est la découverte de filiation nobles à travers les archives. Bref, j'ai tenté d'apporter mon expertise en toute neutralité ainsi que mes connaissances mais certains de mes commentaires ont été ignorés, voir balayés de la main.

Le sujet que j'apporte et qui me dérange ici est la conviction dangereuse et quasi religieuse que certains participants démontrent dans cette conversation. Désolé si je nomme ces personnes mais il est temps que cela cesse : Joseph Bolton, Mary Lewis (Surtout ces derniers temps et malgré mon respect pour elle pour ses efforts), Bill Debuque et parfois, moins souvent, Fred White.

Il est vraiment temps de cesser de vouloir convaincre les gens avec votre sac troué en guise de preuve. Je ne peux pas être plus clair. Vous vous comportez exactement comme des prêcheurs de paroisses et c'est vraiment inquiétant.

(Excluant Fred White) Le nombre de fois que vous avez rédigé des attaques passives agressives avec les gens qui apportent des opinions différentes est incalculable désormais. Il faut vraiment que cela cesse.

Certains d'entre-vous copie colle des arbres ici dans cette discussion ayant été pris sur des sites peu fiables, surtout lorsqu'on arrive aux généalogies d'outremer, en déclarant que ce sont des sources sûres et fiables afin d'établir des connections avec la maison de Savoie. Il ne suffit pourtant que de quelques recherches approfondies pour voir les incohérence et les Savoie ammenés dans ces arbres sans aucune source sérieuse.

Comme Raymond Lafleur l'a mentionné, les généalogies britanniques du 19ieme, 17ieme et même 16ieme siècles sont difficilement fiables car les registres de paroisses ne donnaient que le nom du baptisé en excluant la mère. Aussi les mariages dans bien des régions ne nommaient pas les parents. Hors, une base en généalogie nous rappelle que pour établir une filiation, comme une combinaison de cadenas; il nous faut le mariage de l'individu qui citera les prénoms et noms de ses deux parents, ensuite il nous faut retrouver le mariage de ses deux parents avec les deux noms de familles cités, qui lui viendera valider la continuité de cette filiation. (Je saute ici les techniques secondaires tout aussi importantes et filiatives comme les registres de baptêmes, sépultures, l'étude des liens entre les baptisés avec leurs parrains et marraines, les contrats de notariés ainsi que les ouvrages comme des nobilaires). Bref il nous faut des archives des vrais ! Des actes et des vrais... Avant de copier des lignées assurez-vous qu'il vous a été possible de voir par un lien internet les actes de documents originaux pour chaque génération ou sinon du moins avoir une source d'un article bien documenté provenant d'un chercheur qui présentent où trouver ces documents en question.

Je vois ici comment les gens abordent Raymond et sa rigueur que je respecte et cela ne m'enchante guère. J'ai tout lu dans cette discussion dans les commentaires de ceux qui déclarent détenir la vérité

- Intuition spirituelle de cette filiation.

- La tradition orale hyper mal documentée ainsi que les comparatifs d'ADN de Bill Debuque s'appuyant sur un autre arbre construit de traditions orales, sont des preuves absolues et c'est à ceux qui déclarent ne pas être d'accord d'apporter la preuve.
(Citation Joseph Bolton).

- Mes enfants ont le même visage et menton que Catherine de Médicis.

- Les gens qui ne sont pas d'accord avec nos convictions concernant cette filiation sont des personnes mal intentionnées.

Je vais vous dire un truc pour terminer (de toute façon Joseph Bolton m'a déjà dit qu'il ne lisait pas mes textes quand ils étaient trop long, encore sa manière à lui d'être bien aimable) :

J'avais décidé de ne plus écrire dans cette conversation car je me sentais comme un athé dans une église d'ultras pratiquants ou on ignorait tous mes arguments logiques et où on voulait me faire avaler de force la bonté du Christ.


P.S :

En droit français, l'obligation de prouver repose sur la partie qui invoque les faits au soutien de ses prétentions. C'est aux parties elles-mêmes qu'appartient la charge de la preuve. Plus précisément, c'est à celui qui allègue un fait d'en apporter la preuve (article 1353 du Code civil).

12/8/2021 at 8:55 PM

À méditer :

" Avouer qu'on a eu tort, c'est prouver modestement qu'on est devenu plus raisonnable. "

Jonathan Swift

12/8/2021 at 8:56 PM

Jonathan Chénier - thank you for a heart felt post. I was telling Raymond Lafleur how much I learn from these chats, and feel quite honored to have your posts.

Here’s to good quality, documented genealogy we can all be proud of.

Private User
12/8/2021 at 9:04 PM

Bravo Jonathan. Merci pour vos gentils commentaires à moi. J'ai beaucoup de respect pour les généalogistes sérieux et accomplis comme vous et John P Dulong. Tout ce que vous avez dit ici, je suis entièrement d'accord avec. Faire des recherches originales est très, très difficile et la plupart ne veulent pas faire le travail. Son ascendance directe sur Mathilde de Savoye a été démentie. Maintenant, elle a une ligne qui passe par Jean Pinguet/Louise Creste qui ne peut pas être validée. Son arbre est plein de problèmes.

Vous verrez un commentaire et des liens ci-dessus avec une discussion sur Louise Creste. FichierOrigine (Roland-Yves Gagné ?) n'a pas poussé la ligne au-delà de Louise Creste. Mais, Mary Lewis semble l'avoir fait. Merci encour. Un plaisir.

Private User
12/8/2021 at 9:17 PM

A note for everyone else in this discussion and especially to those Jonathan has mentioned by name - I'm sure you can google translate his comment and get the essence of what he said. What you may not understand is why he wrote it in French rather than English. Its a strong message to you that putting the effort to write something in a second language is difficult and takes time. He doesn't think any of you have given his comments and opinions the due respect his years of experience and expertise deserves. So, by writing in French, he's giving you the same respect and consideration you gave him.

12/8/2021 at 10:40 PM

Did I get Louise Creste fixed correctly?

Private User
12/8/2021 at 11:11 PM

Erica, yes. Looks fine. Sent you a note with a major error in the Francois Joseph Savoie path she posted.

Private User
12/9/2021 at 1:20 AM

@Jonathan Chenier

You conveniently failed to mention the fact that after being absent from this discussion for so long, Raymond suddenly comes hurling back into this conversation slandering me and work before proceeding to launch a smear campaign against across the internet. And this is honorable behavior to you?

And now here you are slamming Joseph, Fred, and I for being open minded to the possibility? Regardless of circumstances or differences in opinion, we should all be treating eachother with respect and descency. You seem to forget that Joseph was the one who started this discussion in the first place, and saddens me to see people like you, Raymond, Glenn, and etc.. disrespecting him and the rest of us who share his open mindedness and curiosity. It is an absolute disgrace. That being said, I'm sure that the direction in which this discussion has gone, is not what Joseph had in mind when he started it. Its one thing to be neutral and objective, its quite another to shoot people down. I can't help but wonder how you and the rest of the doubters would respond if evidence were to prove you wrong. I'm willing to bet we would hear nothing but crickets.

Private User
12/9/2021 at 3:00 AM

Joseph Bolton

I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your friendship and guidance. By sharing the oral tradition passed down through your family, you have brought so many of us together as we share in this gift which our families have held sacred for centuries. I especially want to thank you for your hard work and dedication to honoring the memory of our great grandfather Francois Joseph Savoie. And Fred White I also want to thank you for your friendship, kindness, and curiosity. Both you and Joseph have been such an inspiration to me, my dear cousins, I am truly honored to know the both of you. And Erica Howton I want to thank you as well. I have much respect and appreciation for your hard work and dedication to this discussion. This journey has been a learning process for me, and although we may have had our disagreements, you have always encouraged me to do better.

12/9/2021 at 5:35 AM

I remain open minded. I don’t disrespect you or Joseph. I just disagree with your conclusions as it is quite clear that there is no where near enough evidence to be jumping to the conclusions that the two of you are arriving at.

12/9/2021 at 5:37 AM

Jonathan and Raymond,
Thank you both for being voices of reason and for the really nitty gritty work of true genealogy that you both clearly engage in. Your insights are much appreciated.

Private User
12/9/2021 at 5:55 AM

Erica Howton

I just wanted to note that the entirety of my tree is not reflected here on Geni because the gedcom file I uploaded was incomplete at the time as it is a work in progress. I have recently discovered that I have 2 lines to Francois. One through Marie Andree Savoie and the other through Germain Savoie. I will be sure upload my updated gedcom upon completion.

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