Gert Petrus Barnard - Mismerge

Started by Sharon Lee Doubell on Wednesday, September 26, 2018
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9/26/2018 at 7:34 AM

Dries Potgieter b1c8d1e5f9g7h4i9
Yesterday at 4:12 PM
Managers of Gert Petrus Barnard,

I am contacting you about this profile: Gert Petrus Barnard
I refer to your remark in regard to the birth date, in the about section. That can be. But according to me his mothers names are incorrect, in this regard see the sitation in the about section of his mother.
Sincerely,

Dries Potgieter b1c8d1e5f9g7h4i9

Gert Petrus Barnard

9/26/2018 at 7:42 AM

Hesther Susanna Magdalena Barnard
Hester Suzanna Magdalena Visser b 29 Dec 1852, bap 21 Mar 1853, Fauresmith, OFS
Parents: Gert Petrus Visser & Anna Christina Elizabeth Jacobs

Using baptismal sources

Gert Petrus Barnard
Gert Petrus Barnard 18 Jul 1874 - 5 Nov 1932
Par: Marthinus Christoffel Barnard & Hesther Petronella Visser
x Maryna Francina Petronella Swanepoel
*Martinus *Roelof *Elizabeth *Gert Petrus *Hester Susanna Magdalena *Margaretha *Aletta * Anna

Using Baptism and Death records

Martinus Kerstoffel Barnard
Marthinus Christoffel Barnard bap 25 Oct 1835
Par: Jacobus Nicolaas Barnard & Maria Elizabeth Botha

Using baptismal record

9/26/2018 at 7:49 AM

So, Hesther Petronella Visser, has been smerged out of existence?

9/26/2018 at 7:57 AM

Recreating her: Hesther Susanna Magdalena Barnard

Cutting the connection between Marthinus Christoffel Barnard & Hester Suzanna Magdalena Visser, pending Sources.

9/26/2018 at 8:13 AM

Charlette Louise Hoppe and Dries Potgieter REMEMBER THEM, please check the lines surrounding, as this removes Hesther Susanna Magdalena Barnard's previous descent line.

9/26/2018 at 12:44 PM

Dries, Sharon and Charlette,
I have no problem with cutting the connection. Charlette expert on the Vissers.
Pieter

9/27/2018 at 1:15 AM

I check the connection yesterday after the merge and everything was in place. I even follow the line upwards till the first ancestors.
The problem is that Hester Petronella doesnt fit in there. The right person as second wife to Marthinus Christoffel Barnard is Hester Suzanna Magdalena Visser she is the daughter of Gert Petrus Visser and again the mother of Gert Petrus Barnard who is Charlette`sis grandfather.

All the sources and or refrences to the sources were type either as source or history in the About section. Before the merge the managers of the main profils were notified.

I agree that hester Petronella should be merged out of existence (I wont call it smerged)
till her rightfull place can be find in the tree.
I am going to reinstate all the sources that I used and will redo the merge.

9/27/2018 at 1:26 AM

https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-1-202769991-1-13698/mart....

Here is the right situation of the Barnard family (With Out the wrong wife) and I am going to work from it downwards

9/27/2018 at 3:40 AM

Woah Dries. You've just removed the profile I created for this Source using the actual Baptismal record:
Gert Petrus Barnard 18 Jul 1874
Par: Marthinus Christoffel Barnard & Hesther Petronella Visser

MH Isn't a Source.

9/27/2018 at 4:03 AM

Let's take this a step at a time and post primary sources:

You say "The right person as second wife to Marthinus Christoffel Barnard is Hester Suzanna Magdalena Visser she is the daughter of Gert Petrus Visser and again the mother of Gert Petrus Barnard who is Charlette`sis grandfather."

Charlette herself doesn't think this is the case, and has a primary source for a Gert Petrus Barnard that shows Hesther Petronella Visser as his mother.

What are your primary sources? (MH Isn't a primary source)
If you upload them perhaps we can piece this altogether.

9/27/2018 at 5:07 AM

OK. I Agree. Here is the profile of Hester Susanna Magdalena Visser/Barnard that had been Curated by you, with mentioning of the baptismal particulars . In the ABOUT section
is a pasted copy of the baptismal records as copied from Family Search.

So I believe there can be no problem about the identity of the person.
I believe I mentioned that I refer to the sources that is intergrated into the Myheritage profile.
What I truly think what happned her was that with time the Petronella slips in to first names.
So the agreeable thing should be that Carlette provide a birth certificate for "Petronella''
Otherwise we are busy with two different trees.

9/27/2018 at 5:20 AM

Susanna Magdalena and Petronella are quite different names, though.
I MPed both of them according to the documents that were attached. (As above)

Charlette's birth certificate for Gert clearly links H Petronella to Marthinus Christoffel.

You need to provide documents that link H Susanna Magdalena to Marthinus Christoffel.

9/27/2018 at 5:40 AM

Ok, then you bring me the birthcertificate that shows a person named Hester Petronella Susanna Magdalena Visser. It is the same person. The names are the same except for the Petronella.

Ok lets compromise and use the AKO. My whole interest in this part of the tree is to help Charlette to complete the 'Barnard 'Part with which she has been busy for years.

9/27/2018 at 5:46 AM

I have no problem with 2 different trees until we find relevant documents.

Very likely or possibly these are 2 entirely Marthinus Christoffel Barnard husbands/fathers.

9/27/2018 at 6:15 AM

There is no 'Hester Petronella Susanna Magdalena Visser' - that was the smerge.

9/27/2018 at 6:15 AM

Charlette, Why shall he name his own child Hester Susanna Magdalena while Petronella
form such a strong part of the name. See attached. Hester Susanna Magdalena Swanepoel

I have request Sandra Hughes to try and get us a copy of his mariage certificate.

For the rest I agree with you.

9/27/2018 at 6:43 AM

Okay, I'm locking all the relationships as they are now. Not because they're right - just so we have a baseline to work from. Post sources as you find them and we'll add the profiles and update the relationships. Maybe we find the error quite naturally as a result.

9/27/2018 at 9:54 AM

Sandra Hughes says

Hello Sharon
I have been helping Charlette Barron for many years with MC Barnard, Hester Petronella and Hester Susanna Magdalena Visser with child Gert Petrus Barnard. I have never found a baptism for Hester Petronella but I have found one for Hester Susanna Magdalena Visser with father Gert Petrus Visser and Anna Christina Elizabeth Jacobs in Fauresmith and have added it to the profile of Hester Petronella for you to peruse.
(The following children are also MC Barnard and HSM Vissers children: Hester Susanna Magdalena Barnard May 24 1876, Marthinus Jacobus Barnard c. 1877, Aletta Frederika Maritz Dec 19 1878 TAB MHG 91361 [date 22 Junie 1934 mentioned next to name of A.F. Maritz], Hercules Jacobus Aug 16 1880 died Nov 11 1939 Witpoort TAB MHG 12608/1939. I would like to add them to the applicable profiles.
After all the years I have not found a marriage record, but I think that Hester Petronella and Hester Susanna Magdalena Visser are one and the same.

Please let me know what you think!!? One can always be wrong!
Kind regards
Sandra Hughes

9/27/2018 at 10:04 AM

Hello Sandra
I'm adding this to the Discussion - as that's the only way we'll keep all the info linked to the profiles for posterity. Messages will be lost.

>> "Hester Susanna Magdalena Visser with father Gert Petrus Visser and Anna Christina Elizabeth Jacobs in Fauresmith and have added it to the profile of Hester Petronella for you to peruse."
*Yes, I MPed the profile for her with that info.

>>"(The following children are also MC Barnard and HSM Vissers children: Hester Susanna Magdalena Barnard May 24 1876, Marthinus Jacobus Barnard c. 1877, Aletta Frederika Maritz Dec 19 1878 TAB MHG 91361 [date 22 Junie 1934 mentioned next to name of A.F. Maritz], Hercules Jacobus Aug 16 1880 died Nov 11 1939 Witpoort TAB MHG 12608/1939. I would like to add them to the applicable profiles."
* What are the Sources for these?
*Adding them would be fantastic :-)

>>"After all the years I have not found a marriage record, but I think that Hester Petronella and Hester Susanna Magdalena Visser are one and the same."
*We need a good reason to think this, though. The Concentration record may be one -reason - ttps://www2.lib.uct.ac.za/mss/bccd/Person/153229/Hester_Susanna_Barnard/ and Dries's point about the cild's name - but it isn't as solid as the Gert Petrus birth certificate citing H Petronella.

Still a good reason to think that we may have two trees; or two generations; or two cousins smerged, rather than that a Petronella became a Susanna Magdelena?

But- one can always be wrong, as you say.

9/27/2018 at 11:29 AM

It cant be coincidental that Hester Susanna are from the same farm Droogekraal https://www2.lib.uct.ac.za/mss/bccd/Person/153229/Hester_Susanna_Ba...

9/27/2018 at 12:04 PM

Well spotted.

9/27/2018 at 12:28 PM

Sandra is looking for birth certificates to upload tomorrow - so will come back tomorrow evening and put info together, you two.

9/28/2018 at 2:11 AM

Herewith more info on the Potch/Klerksdorp/Wolmaranstad/ Witpoort BARNARDS:

Baptisms of the children of Marthinus Christoffel Barnard and Hester Susanna Magdalena Barnard:

(Charlette Barron had wonderfully compiled the baptisms of the Barnards that appear in the NHK Potchefstroom Register on an Excel Sheet so analyzing them was much easier.)

Herewith the children of MC Barnard and HSM Visser:

1.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9Z5-R9S1?i=1112&a...
Shortly:
Hester Susanna Magdalena Barnard * 24.5.1876  3.1877
Parents: Marthinus Christoffel Barnat ; Hester Susanna Magdalena Visser
Witnesses: Lod J Bothma [Note: M C Barnard 1st marriage to Wilhelmina Hendrina Fourie: daughter Anna Catharina Maria Barnard x Lodewicus Johannes Bothma] ;
2nd Bothma initials not too clear!
GP VISSER ; AC JACOBS

2. Marthinus Jacobus Barnard * 23.6.1877 ?

3.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89Z5-RT2?i=1196&am...

Aletta Fredrica Barnard * 19.12.1878  NHK Potchefstroom 6.4.1879
[DN of Jan Johannes Jacobus Maritz: TAB MHG 91361 1935 with date † 22 Junie 1934 mentioned next to name of A.F. Maritz, but she was the surviving spouse!!]
TAB MHG 91361 1935: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSS4-W3XW-J?i=2005...

Parents on baptism record: Marthinus Christoffel Barnat ; Hester Susanna Visser
Witnesses: 3 Barnards and ACE Visser [This may be the mother of Hester SM Visser Barnard: Anna Christina Elizabeth Visser born Jacobs OR Hester’s sister with same name married to Abel Jacobus van Zyl]

4. Herculaas Barnard * c. died at Witpoort Nov 11 1939 (and if I remember correctly his parents were MC Barnard and HSM Visser.)
TAB MHG 12608/67 1939: I found this DN before, but not again today!

Hester Susanna Magdalena Barnard as witness at her daughter Aletta Frederika Maritz (Barnard)’s baptism of the following 2 children:

Baptism in KLERKSDORP Concenstration Camp found at NHK WOLMARANSTAD Christenings, memberships, 1892-1952 Image 118:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9Z5-LPL1?i=117&am...
Shortly:
Carolina Magdalena Susanna 7.3.1902  NGK Klerksdorp Konsentrasiekamp 16.3.1903
Parents: Jan Johannes Marits ; Aletta “Magdalena” Barnard
Witnesses: MARTHINUS CHRISTOFFEL BARNARD ; HESTER SUSANNA MAGDALENA VISSER

2.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9Z5-2HH6?i=120&am...
Shortly:
Marthinus Christoffel Marits * 22.1.1904  NHK Klerksdorp 25.6.1904
Parents Jan Johannes Jacobus Marits ; Aletta Fredrieka Marits gebore Barnard
Witnesses: HESTER SUSANNA BARNARD with her son and brother of Aletta Fredrika: HERCULAAS JACOBUS BARNARD
(Jan Johannes Jacobus Maritz was a widower x Adriana Cornelia Johanna Petronella de Graaf s.o. Frans Stephanus Maritz & Carolina Maria Johanna Maritz)

3.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89Z5-RT2?i=1196&am...

Marthinus Christoffel Bothma
Parents: Lodewyk Johannes Bothma ; Anna Catharina Maria Barnard
Witnesses: MC BARNARD ; HS VISSER

9/28/2018 at 8:59 AM

Thanks Sandra,
You put in a whole nights work. Thats about the Benades, They can work. !!!! My Stepmother, Rachel Aletta Benade, never ask me to do a stich of work .

I think there are enough real hard and circumstantional evidence to show that the woman this M C Barnard married was Hester Susanna Magdalena Visser.
The scribe had Petronella on his brain. Maybe it was his mother in laws name.

9/28/2018 at 9:10 AM

Thankyou Sandra - that is well researched and precisely put. I will add.

Am I the only one who notices the age difference between
Marthinus Christoffel Barnard (1835 - 1911) and his first wife Wilhelmina Hendrina Fourie (1819 - 1869)? She is 16 years older than him. How likely is that?

9/28/2018 at 9:16 AM

Here is another one the Maritze they are also from "Droogekraal " Please note the name
Hester Susanna Magdalena between the names. named after her grandmother https://www2.lib.uct.ac.za/mss/bccd/Person/155794/Jan_Jacobus_Maritz/

9/28/2018 at 9:37 AM

Noted.

Walk me back to why we know that the Marthinus Christoffel Barnard (1835-1911) who married Hesther Susanna Magdalena Visser
was the same Marthinus Christoffel Barnard who was [first] married to Wilhelmina Hendrina Fourie (d1869)?

Can anyone read the age of death here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS3F-F9QN-L?i=725&...?

Vier en dertig?

9/28/2018 at 9:40 AM

Thanks Sandra. All looks so feasible. As the dominee wrote the incorrect birth date it is perfectly reasonable to suppose he wrote Petronella and not Susanna. Too much "brandewyn" at the Nagmaal!?
The names all slot in nicely.
Can any of you let me know if there are documents relating to this first marriage to Wilhelmina Hendrina Fourie? I was only aware of one wife.

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