Caroline Pagenkopf - Was Caroline the mother of Frederick William, Carl (Charles) Frederich Ludwig and Johann Gottlieb Pagenkopf? Was her husband Johann Friedrich Pagenkopf?

4/24/2019 at 6:59 PM

For many years it has been accepted that Caroline Pagenkopf, who accompanied the three boys Frederick William, Carl (Charles) Frederich Ludwig and Johann Gottlieb Pagenkopf to the United States in 1839 was their mother. But, was she? It appears they remained in the US for a period of time as they are in the 1840 Census for New York, but they had to have returned to Germany. Frederick and Johann married in Germany and returned to the United States with their wives and families, settling in Wisconsin.: Carl married in Wisconsin. Eventually, he and Frederick moved their familie to Minnesota. The basis for accepting that Caroline was their mother is an article that was written by a descendant, John Fitzloff. That is the only place I have found her mentioned. Research has not revealed her birthplace, birthdate, marriage, spouse, birth of children or death. Was she their mother, or was she a relative?

There are documents in Germany for the birth, marriage and offspring of the youngest brother, Johann Gottlieb Pagenkopf. The birthdate, wife and daughter match records about him in the US. His birth record in Germany states his parents to be Gottlieb Pagenkopf and Catharine Sophie Lindemann. There was also a younger sister born in 1829, who died in 1836. Mother, Catherine Sophie died in died in 1830. To date I have not found records for the birth of the older brothers. Were they full brothers to Johann? Father, Gottlieb was born in 1793, so there was opportunity for him to have been married before his union with Catharine Sophie Lindemann. And, it appears he married after Catharine died, but his wife's name was Dorothee.

We also had Johann Friedrich Pagenkopf as the husband of Caroline, but he was only a possible candidate (guess), as he died before 1839, which would have fit in with her immigrating to the US in 1839. He was not proven and we deleted him from our tree. Another tree has a Carl Pagenkopf as her husband, but he was born in 1819 - not possible.

Contact us if you would like more information about the German records that exist.................Donna Pagenkopf Libal and Duane Madison Pagenkopf @ Charles Frederich Ludwig Pagenkopf, Sr.

Private User

4/25/2019 at 10:13 AM

Thank you for your post...I have always had a ? mark in my tree on this subject...I think the answer lies in the church records in the area their families reside. I do not have a contact in that area to go and study the church records. I had a professional study my surname in the Schaumburg German church records to prove up correct parentage.

Duane Madison Pagenkopf

5/1/2019 at 11:35 PM

Duane's sister Donna writing this reply........There has been contact with a man in Germany who has searched for and been unable to locate church records for the two older Pagenkopf brothers. Please know that he does not believe their parents are Gottlieb Pagenkopf and Catherine Sophia Lindeman because the places where they were born are not the same as for the younger siblings and other events that took place in the family. Frederick's birthplace, Baden (stated in US records) is a distance away, and Carl's birthplace of Plathe is questionable -- family trees vary for his place of birth, and the Find A Grave memorial is incorrect. Some of the birthplaces do not have birth records prior to 1825, and Frederick was born in 1820 and Carl in 1823.

I have found nothing to discourage believing that Johann Gottlieb was their younger brother, and based on the German records about him I still accept that his parents are the parents of Frederick and Carl and will continue in that belief until someone can prove otherwise. Johann Gottlieb accompanied them to the US in 1839 and by family history he was their brother, both in our family branch and other trees, too. Caroline remains a mystery, and I will continue to search for her -- whether Pagenkopf was her maiden name or married name is still to be determined/proven. More children were born to Gottlieb and his second wife Dorothea and I am developing their profiles in hopes that something may surface through other family trees I am unaware of. And there is still the remote possibility that Gottlieb was married before his marriage to Catharine Sophie Lindemann, as he was born in 1893 -- would have been 27 when the oldest, Frederick was born.

Thank you, Richard, for your response. It is the first and only reply we have received so far, and this post was made both in GENI and Ancestry.

Susan Scott

8/2/2021 at 11:00 PM

@Caroline Pagenkopf. I am hoping you, Donna, will have an update to this discussion. I love a mystery! At the moment myheritage.com is under maintenance, so I was unable to do any searching this evening. Will work with you directly maybe tomorrow or another day.
And to Richard and Duane, let's hope more details will come to the fore.

Private User

8/3/2021 at 10:39 AM

I am happy to see there is still activity on Caroline Pagenkopf. I have been busy the past year updating the tree I am compiling to leave for my grandchildren, because realize at age 88 do not not have too many more years on this earth. My great-grandmother was Augusta L. Pagenkopf (1846-1921). Thank-you Susan for your short message and have added you name to the list of people working on Caroline.

Duane Madison Pagenkopf

8/8/2021 at 4:09 PM

I am so pleased to find that there are still people interested in this puzzle. I wish I had an update with more information, but I don't. I have now developed a workiing tree for finding Caroline, focuing on records mostly in Germany. There have been many with her name, both in the US and Germany, but not so many were born in the early 1800s.
And, can you believe it, I found another Carl Friedrrich, Ludwig Pagenkopf born in Prussia about 1830. He married in 1853, but remained in Prussia, and had a large family. His father was Johann Pagenkopf, who was born about 1797. Johann was a brother to our Gottlieb, so their sons were 1st cousins with the same name. Eventually, I found that Carl Friedrich Ludwig also had another middle name of Theodor.
Yes, Richard I can understand the urgency to get things organized. Duane and I are not far behind you in age, and we are trying to find someone to take over our trees. Do you have a tree in Ancestry.com? I see the name erpiepho as an owner.
Susan, I have printed out our e-mail conversations to review before I respond to your last email message.
Just a note FYI - our Pagenkopf descendants from Carl Albert Pagenkopf and Lillilan Anna Emma Rusch are having a reunion this month in Minnesota. I am heartsick that I won't be attending, but Duane will be there. I just sent off ancestry pedigrees charts and profiles that will be available to family members. Maybe some new information will surfacte there. Best regards, Donna

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Caroline Pagenkopf - Was Caroline the mother of Frederick William, Carl (Charles) Frederich Ludwig and Johann Gottlieb Pagenkopf? Was her husband Johann Friedrich Pagenkopf?

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