Open letter from Bill Deyo - Tribal Historian of the Patawomeck - Jane Ka-Okee; Keziah, Elkins, Martin, Waddington, Wahanganoche, Bryant, Waugh, Pettus, Meese Etal

Started by Linda (Carr) Buchholz, Kit # FW864102C1 on Wednesday, June 5, 2019
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Related Projects:

Showing 1-30 of 202 posts

Deyo, William L CTR USN (USA)
June 5, 2019
9:14 AM (41 minutes ago)
to me, Rachelle, Rachelle

Hi Linda,

Some of the names that you have are not correct and are ones that were just made up by some people. I will try to give you the correct set of names.

Ka-Okee’s name would have been “Jane Ka-Okee”, as the baptismal name always comes before the original Indian name. She married Col. Thomas Pettus.

The name of Ka-Okee’s daughter who married Wahanganoche is totally unknown. It may have been Rebecca, as it would seem logical that Ka-Okee would have had a daughter named after her mother, but we just do not know. She was the mother of Wahanganoche’s daughter, baptismal name believed to have been “Mary”, based on some supporting evidence involving her husband, Henry Meese, but we have no knowledge of “Mary’s” original Indian name. It was not Ontonah, as that was the name of an orphan Patawomeck girl who married into the Curtis family.

Wahanganoche’s daughter, Keziah Arroyah, married (Richard? Name based on other evidence) Bryant, but she might only have been the half-sister of “Mary” above, with a different mother, as she was much older than “Mary”. This is where the DNA may help to solve that. Keziah Arroyah had the son, Richard Bryant, who married Anne Meese, daughter of Henry Meese and “Mary”, daughter of Wahanganoche.

Richard Bryant and Anne Meese had, among others, Elizabeth Bryant, who married Richard Elkins, son of Ralph Elkins and Miss Ashton (sister, not daughter of Col. Peter Ashton). Their son, Richard Elkins, Jr., married Mary Gallop, daughter of Robert Gallop and Elinor (Bryant) [who appears to have been the daughter of Silent Bryant and Lucy Doniphan, and granddaughter of Keziah Arroyah, daughter of Wahanganoche, as an early written account claims.

Ka-Okee’s daughter, Christian Pettus, married (1) John Martin and (2) Francis Waddington. Christian was not married to Evan Williams. That was her daughter, Chrisitan “Jr.”, who married Evan Williams and married secondly to Rev. John Waugh. Mary Williams, daughter of Evan Williams and Christian Martin, married Richard Elkins, as his first wife, before Elizabeth Bryant. Ka-Okee’s son, Thomas Pettus, was the one who married Katherine Morris (not Stephen Pettus). Stephen Pettus is believed to have been another son of Ka-Okee, as was Robert Pettus, who named his daughter “Rebecca Pettus”, either after his grandmother, Pocahontas, or one of his sisters. One of the two sisters whose name is unknown was the wife of a John Goldsby/Goldby. She had at least one daughter, Frances, who married Thomas White and William Lampton. A chancery suit showed that Frances was the niece of Mrs. Christian Waddington.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Bill

To Clarify the Ralph Elkins --

Ralph Elkins the immigrant was born in England and arrived in Virginia in 1657 - he was married to Mary Francis Ashton

U.S. and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s
View Record
Name Ralph Elkins
Arrival Year 1657
Arrival Place Virginia
Primary Immigrant Elkins, Ralph

Ralph Elkins who was tithable was married to Frances Brown & was the son of Richard Elkins/Elizabeth Bryant was the grandson of Ralph Elkins the immigrant/Mary Francis Ashton. He was also the great grandson of Richard Bryant/Keziah Arroyah Wahangancoche & Henry Meese/Mary Wahanganoche.

In 1749, the Lunenburg County tax list includes:

Richard Elkins, 1 tithable
Ralph, Sr. and Nathaniel, 2 tithables (Nathaniel, age 16-20)
Ralph, Jr., under 21 (age 16-20)

"KING GEORGE County, WILL BOOK" by Ha. S. King 1745 June 4;
"I, Maxfield Brown, in Parish of Hanover, County of King George..." bequeaths each of his five daughters Five Shillings, viz: Elizabeth Triplett, FRANCES ELKINS, Martha Whiting, and Sibella Lightburn. "unto my two sons Newman Brown and George Brown all and every part of my estate...." Recorded July 5, 1745.

Maxfield Brown’s will and the land lease between Ralph Elkins and George Mason show that Maxfield Brown’s daughter, Frances Brown, was wife of Ralph Elkins.

1 Ralph Elkins
+ Frances Brown

1745, May 17, Amelia County Court Order Book, p. 314-B, Ordered road be cleared from head of Little Roanoke River along the ridge between Briery Creek & Buffelloe River to Rutlidge's ford over Appomattox River. The group included RALPH ELKIN.

Private
6/5/2019 at 10:22 AM

This information may help a lot of people and thank you very much for posting it.

6/5/2019 at 1:14 PM

The only catch is there are no records to support any of these relationships but there are records which contradict them.

Private
6/5/2019 at 5:53 PM

Chancery Suit Proof that Mrs Christian (Pettus) Martin-Waddington had a niece proven by a Chancery suit showing the niece Frances White-Lampton, recorded daughter of John Goldsby/Goldby as niece of Mrs. Christian Waddington making Christian Ka-Okee’s daughter, Christian Pettus, who married (1) John Martin and (2) Francis Waddington. Christian (was not married to Evan William who instead was the daughter, Chrisitan “Jr.”, who married Evan Williams and married secondly to Rev. John Waugh. Mary Williams, daughter of Evan Williams and Christian Martin, married Richard Elkins, as his first wife, before Elizabeth Bryant. Ka-Okee’s son, Thomas Pettus, was the one who married Katherine Morris (not Stephen Pettus). Stephen Pettus is believed to have been another son of Ka-Okee, as was Robert Pettus, who named his daughter “Rebecca Pettus”, either after his grandmother, Pocahontas, or one of his sisters. One of the two sisters whose name is unknown was the wife of a John Goldsby/Goldby.

6/5/2019 at 6:19 PM

I don’t have a lot of time to do more on this at the moment, but I will post a couple of points. Christian1, 2, and Mary Williams have been sorted correctly on Geni, I believe; their spouses and children correct; and their profiles detailed. I doubt there would be any disagreement on them with Bill Deyo; more work developing their descent lines, especially the Ann McPherson family, by Geni members would be much appreciated.

The Pettus family is not going to be solved quickly, nor is the controversial Ka Okee. Updating names of course, go forward.

Points:

1. Christian2 actually married a third time to Hawkins - see her profile.

2. There is very little evidence about the sister of Christian1. We only know that her daughter called herself Frances Golber when she confirmed her cousin relationship with Ann McPherson. There is nothing suggesting this unknown sister was anything but - unknown. We don’t know if full, half, step, in law ... all of those modern terms were covered by the contemporaneous designation of “sister” (and if this were New England Puritan or Quaker, could be a church sister!). Since it seems Frances had no children, I don’t see how we’d be able to identify further, but it does seem from the land transactions that the cousin families remained close.

6/5/2019 at 6:24 PM

Re: recorded daughter of John Goldsby/Goldby

Need to see that on a link in a book or whatever. All I’ve seen is Frances Golber and Comments that the name could be garbled since it’s transcription of a court deposition.

6/5/2019 at 6:31 PM

Another idea so we don’t “lose” it - can the email quoted in https://www.geni.com/discussions/197264?msg=1301030 be uploaded as doc (preferably PDF) to the relevant profiles? Very good to have this view of the relationships easily available.

Additional info received today (6-5-2019) from Bill Deyo

“Mary”, daughter of Wahanganoche, married Henry Meese. He was born per the parish records in either 1628 or 1629 in accordance with his placement in the list of his siblings. He died in the early 1680’s but I would have to check his will probation to be sure of the year. Henry’s will only named his infant children by his last wife, Anne Pert. When he wrote his will in 1681, his children by the daughter of Wahanganoche were all grown and had likely been provided for by Henry at their marriages. The children of Henry and “Mary” are all speculated per circumstantial evidence:

- Anne, married (1) William (not John) Redman, a Patawomeck orphan raised by the Redman family. She married (2) Richard Bryant, son of (Richard?) Bryant and Keziah Arroyah, daughter of Chief Wahanganoche.

- Frances, traditionally a wife of Rev. John Waugh. She could not be the mother of his eldest sons unless their approximate birth years were later than estimated.

- John, married (1) Rebecca (who may have been his cousin, Rebecca Pettus, daughter of Robert). He married (2) Mary (Grigsby) Newton, a widow, daughter of John Grigsby, whose wife has traditionally been known by one branch of the family as a daughter of Wahanganoche, for which the circumstantial evidence is very high.

I have never heard anything about Henry Meese’s children being a daughter, Elinor, who married Thomas Bryant, or a daughter, Mary, who married Robert Redman. Also, there was no Grace Meese. John Ashton’s wife was Grace, but she was not a daughter of Henry Meese. That was only theorized because Henry Meese gave a deed of gift of a cow to Grace’s daughter, Mary, who was most likely his goddaughter and named after his Indian wife, Mary. Henry did not give any gifts to any of the other children of Grace Ashton.

You mentioned about Pocahontas’ mother dying when she was born. If that was the case, her mother would not have later been able to give birth to Pocahontas’ younger sister, Cleopatra. Pocahontas and Cleopatra were daughters of Powhatan’s favorite wife, Winganuske (sister of the Patawomeck Indian, Machumps). Winganuske was the daughter of the Great King of Patawomeck by Powhatan’s eldest sister. That is why Pocahontas and Cleopatra and their mother were sought after for wives, as they were of the royal blood of the matrilineal succession that ran through Powhatan’s mother. Powhatan married his niece, Winganuske, and Opechancanough married his niece, Cleopatra. Also, the only reason that Wahanganoche was able to become the Great King of Patawomeck was because his mother, one of the two wives of Japasaw, was the full sister of Pocahontas.

Bill

Note the post directly above -- Anne Pert was Henry Meese SECOND wife.

"Henry’s will only named his infant children by his last wife, Anne Pert. When he wrote his will in 1681, his children by the daughter of Wahanganoche were all grown and had likely been provided for by Henry at their marriages. "

6/5/2019 at 6:59 PM

I am now totally overwhelmed. :)

Upload as documents. Follow the current MPs.

Do not ask for changes in controversial native profiles for say two years so we can catch up. Joking - I think !

But be aware I have decided, because of another discussion, to not alter the family configuration on Geni for Opechancanough "Mangopeesomon", paramount chief of the Powhatan at the moment.

There is too much else to sort out.

Private
6/5/2019 at 7:14 PM

It is good that Nicati has her other names listed on General Pat Stevens' earlier take on her with that historical perspective uploaded and the Phillip's Projects name for her; but, that is good enough for now on that one. This one is a huge priority but the pdf request of these emails being attached to the MPs involved as sources, will take a bit of time and we appreciate this request to do this.

6/5/2019 at 7:21 PM

I see it happening already and that’s much appreciated. It’s the kind of transparency we need on Geni and strive to present.

6/5/2019 at 7:40 PM

<3

Pettus Family Historian agrees that Ka-Okee married Thomas Pettus ======= . Thomas married, as his first wife in Virginia, Ka-Okee, daughter of Pocahontas and Kocoum, an Indian brave. After learning that the seat of the Patawomeck tribe, of which Pocahontas was a member, was located on Potomac Creek where Thomas held 1,000 ac., and after hearing from Pettuses in other branches of the family about a “Pocahontas connection,” I have now come to accept supposed marriage as true. 8. Thomas and Ka-Okee had children who were the ancestors of persons living today. I have communicated with at least two members of the Patawomeck tribe who trace their descent from the marriage of Ka-Okee to a Pettus.

Pettus historian agrees that Thomas Pettus (husband of Ka-Okee) was in Virginia in early 1630's ------ Thomas’s emigration to Virginia followed his acquittal of a murder charge in England in 1629. By 1631, Thomas had disposed of his future interest in certain estates and departed for Virginia.

Pettus historian agrees that Henry Meese was married to one of Ka-Okee's relatives -------Thomas, was probably in Virginia in the early 1630s and remained there until his death after 1661. Thomas, moreover, held 1,000 ac. on Potomac Cr. which is now in Stafford Co., Va., where many of Ka-Okee’s descendants now live. In 1660, Thomas sold his Potomac Creek plantation to Mr. Henry Meese. Meese was married to one of Ka-Okee’s relatives. Adjacent properties were also owned by Ka-Okee’s relatives.

https://pettusheritage.wordpress.com/2016/11/07/misinformation-on-t...

6/7/2019 at 5:21 PM

Where are there any documents that support the existence of these people and/or their relationships?

Read the website

6/8/2019 at 5:31 AM

I did, several times, over several years. There is no documentation on the proposed Pettus / Ka Okee marriage. It’s a postulate.

6/8/2019 at 5:32 AM

I’m stuck at Encyclopedia of Virginia has Pettus arriving in the Virginia Colony around 1641.

Erica Howton

See Avatar -- 1637 or 1638 -- fleeing murder charge - records obscured purposely

Col. Thomas Pettus

The above came from Genealogies of Virginia Families: From Tyler's Quarterly ..., Volume 1 By Tylers Quarterly Historical and Geneologica - Page 844

Erica Howton

However you will note that the story on his overview section has him coming even earlier than the Genealogies of Virginia Families. Since the records were obscured ON PURPOSE it is hard to know exactly when he came but it was BEFORE 1641.

Although he was only the seventh son, the younger Thomas still received a considerable inheritance from his father of properties in Norwich. However, he killed a man on March 24, 1628 in a street brawl at a New Year's Eve festival, and following his acquittal in 1629 of the murder, he felt it wise to sell his holdings and relocate elsewhere. This led him in late 1630 or early 1631 to sail to Virginia and begin a new life, possibly at the behest of his family. Thomas apparently was preceded in Virginia by at least one sibling, his younger brother Theodore Pettus (b. c.1600), who arrived in 1623 in James City (Jamestown), but of whom nothing further is recorded.

The directly above comes from (Pettus, 2011 - v. I, p. 107-120, no. 31; Pettus, 2013 - v. II, p. 1349-1360)

6/8/2019 at 10:13 AM

There is nothing on record to suggest that Thomas Pettus came to Virginia before the late 1630's. There are very good records of people who arrived before 1635 and he is not among them. The original council documents are located at the Library of Virginia and in the records of the London Company. There are record losses from some early years, so there are gaps in the Council records (not the land records) between 1633 and 1641. Excerpts from some early records exist, but Thomas Pettus is not named in them. The March 8, 1641/2 record is the first mention of “Thomas Pettus” in Virginia. (https://archive.org/details/minutesofcouncil00virg/page/498
)He wasn't an indentured servant, he was a member of a fairly prominent English family including a member of the Virginia Company. If he arrived much before 1640 he would have already had land long before his acquisitions by marriage and by grant in 1643.

His family arranged for the records to be obscured because of his murder charge. They could do so BECAUSE they were wealthy. Read his Avatar

I'm not mentioned in Virginia records, but I've been there, I'm not mentioned in Washington DC records, but I've been there, I'm not mentioned in Pennsylvania records but I've been there

Bottom line JUST BECAUSE YOU AREN'T IN RECORDS FOR A STATE DOESN'T MEAN YOU WERE'NT THERE.

Somewhere somehow common sense has gotten to come to the surface.

Private
6/8/2019 at 11:34 AM

atDna tells the tale where records are missing. Geni accepts SNPs where able to be mapped to vetted lines and ferreted out for endogamy for the various descendant lines. It would be redundant of me to say the this has been done, keeps being done, is able to be ongoing re-verified and I will just say ditto to what I already said in this discussion.

6/8/2019 at 4:52 PM

AtDNA does not tell the tale at 13 generations, I have yet to see a reputable genetic genealogist blog on this (Bettinger, Estes, CeCe Moore, etc). Maybe one day but that day is not yet. From my point of view as a curator of historically significant profiles, I need to err (if I’m erring) on the side of conservative: in a sense my personal beliefs or arguments are irrelevant. The case builds itself and is transparent by the accumulated facts so that anyone will draw a similar conclusion without needing to over reach.

The Pettus author was clear. He wrote that he has come to accept the Deyo hypothesis pending further DNA analysis (and by this he meant, I believe, Y DNA, not atDNA). He did not claim it as fact.

Where does he accept the “hidden identity due to murder charge” story?

I’m also going to point out illogic on “class Identity” yet again for Christian1.

Pettus was a wealthy & prominent man in the Virginia Colony. Do you really think he wouldn’t acknowledge a respectable but obscure daughter “with children” in a fashion paper trail would find, not to mention genealogists working before 2009, who were diligent and published their work in W&MQ & other periodicals? No wills, land, personal property, heirlooms, branded livestock, slaves, correspondence, court depositions, church membership, family charts, bible records, London held records?

In similar families there are obscurities, particularly in identifying women. But there is “class logic” in most of the proposed genealogical constructions. If the wife was “out of class” people noticed & mentioned it.

Christian1 & her sister were not out of class for the families they married into.

And those families were “not” in Pettus class.

Private
6/8/2019 at 5:24 PM

>>>>>AtDNA does not tell the tale at 13 generations, I have yet to see a reputable genetic genealogist blog on this (Bettinger, Estes, CeCe Moore, etc). Maybe one day but that day is not yet. From my point of view as a curator of historically significant profiles,<<<<<< The lines we are tracking are 10 generations that we have chromosome mapped from theses families. No genetic genealogist will say that 10 generations is to hard to find a signature SNP on as that is what they do for a living, especially with endogamy as you find in native lines.

>>>>>The Pettus author was clear. He wrote that he has come to accept the Deyo hypothesis pending further DNA analysis (and by this he meant, I believe, Y DNA, not atDNA). He did not claim it as fact.<<<<< Since atDna puts criminals in jail too, it is not a problem at all to go on atDna and when you have 3 lines on one person vetted to the Martin and a 100 other people with one line to any of these ways to Keziah and when you can see where they trend, it is not personal or opinion at that point.

>>>>>Where does he accept the “hidden identity due to murder charge” story?<<<<To me, it is not even a subject I breach because if Geni does what they say they will do, they would accept the atDna which is why people spend years working through all of this, especially Donivan family to Bryant to Martin to Elkin participants.

>>>>I’m also going to point out illogic on “class Identity” yet again for Christian1.
Pettus was a wealthy & prominent man in the Virginia Colony. Do you really think he wouldn’t acknowledge a respectable but obscure daughter “with children” in a fashion paper trail would find, not to mention genealogists working before 2009, who were diligent and published their work in W&MQ & other periodicals? No wills, land, personal property, heirlooms, branded livestock, slaves, correspondence, court depositions, church membership, family charts, bible records, London held records?<<<<Class logic = The precedent and how may I count the ways that native lines have usually a legitimate line and usually 3 non legit. ALso, the precedent is that in the Bryant descending lines, there were Physicians down the line in the Dawson. Also take the Dawson who were first to trade and very rich from said trade, pre- Brit, why would they have to answer for class and they married into all these lines from this Doctor because the way it actually was is the the Brits were showing up with not much and the ones meeting them had the funds. That is what happened with the Smith of Purtons too who made their money in cooperation with the Chief of the Wicocomico or they would not have had the wealth that they did have; known is the fact that Old Tapp was a man of means. So, class is not an issue. The thinking that the British show up with class and meet a bunch of lazy folks is not even how it was.

Showing 1-30 of 202 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion