Hon. Anna Mackay - Hon. Anna Mackay?

Started by Private User on Thursday, July 4, 2019
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7/4/2019 at 11:03 PM

The source of the Hon appears to be provided in the profile overview.

Sorry English titles are not my area of expertise.

Private User
7/5/2019 at 12:14 AM

Why?
If the sources says Hon and married names was not a tradition at that time or that a source tells that she used a married name we should respect that,.

7/5/2019 at 12:43 AM

Mette, If you want a response from Bjorn or Erica you will need to tag them as they may not automatically see this discussion unless they are following the profile.

Private User
7/5/2019 at 1:10 AM

She backed out and deleted her messages.

I recommend deleting the profile picture she added as well.

7/5/2019 at 1:16 AM

I find when someone deletes their comments with such frequency that it says a lot about the validity of their requests.

7/5/2019 at 1:17 AM

Customer Service, please close this discussion

Private User
7/5/2019 at 3:15 AM

And delete the Donald Trump profile photo on Anna Mackay.

Private User
7/5/2019 at 9:03 AM

THE GENEALOGICAL THEORY SHOULD STAND REGARDING ANNA MUNRO:

Donald Trump is related to most Icelanders and Danish and Norwegian Royalty
https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/culture_and_living/2017/01/24/do...

Private User
7/5/2019 at 9:10 AM

Donald J Trump is a possible relation to Anne Munro, according to an acclaimed Geneaologist Oddur F. Helgason.
https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/culture_and_living/2017/01/24/do...

Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the USA

https://www.geni.com/discussions/198577?msg=1309930

7/5/2019 at 1:48 PM

Private User

The article has several errors, we’ve been through it in detail now.

Using the number assigned by article, Geni profile, my comment:

6. Isabella Munro Mother unproven
9. Angus Mackay, tenant in Kinlochbea Typo of Ansus for Angus
10. Catherine Elisabeth Macleod Given name unknown
12. Catherine Elisabeth Macleod Did not have a child
13. Alexander MacLeod His parents are not yet identified

7/5/2019 at 1:53 PM

Sorry - 10 is [-?-] (Mary) Mackay

The significant “fail” is not thinking through and explaining how a small crofting family devolves from landholders.

I imagine it “could” happen over time: that’s a cycle of history, in generations.

But an army officer’s son?? No. That’s not thought through.

7/5/2019 at 3:48 PM

Private User

We have explained our concerns with the lineage that Oddur F. Helgason posted on Facebook, but I'll give it a try again drawing on primary source documents to support our claims.

The main point of inaccuracy that I see is the connection between the mother of Alexander Macleod, Catherine MacLeod #12 and her supposed father, Donald MacLeod #11. The numbers are the generation indexes which are included on the picture.

The Donald MacLeod #11 Helgason is referring to is Commissary Donald MacLeod this is proven by examining the previous generations he lists which clearly lead directly to the Commissary. Commissary Donald MacLeod did in fact have a daughter named Catherine with his wife Elizabeth "Betty." This Catherine MacLeod married William Telford. We see this mentioned in The Book of Mackay page 255.: https://books.google.com/books?id=GiMNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA272&lpg...

Going beyond the secondary literature, we find Elizabeth Telford (MacLeod) living with her family in the town of Thurso in Scotland on the 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871 Scotland Censuses. To drive home the fact that this is the daughter of Commissary MacLeod and Elizabeth Davidson, the mother, Elizabeth Davidson, is living with her daughter's family in 1851 and 1861. In addition it is clear that the Telford/MacLeods are a wealthy family as they have multiple servants living in their household.

Furthermore, here is the 1909 death certificate of Catherine MacLeod, widow of William Telford, of Thurso: https://s3.amazonaws.com/photos.geni.com/p13/82/b2/7d/0c/5344484cdd...
We see from this certificate that she is the daughter of Donald McLeod, Officer of the Commissary and Elizabeth McLeod (Davidson). In addition she is 89 years old, which puts her birth date around 1820, in line with the census records.

Turning to Donald Trump's ancestor, Catherine/Christian/Christine MacLeod: Catherine/Christian MacLeod

We see her living in Vatisker, Stornoway, Ross-Shire, Scotland on the 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871 Censuses with her family: her husband William MacLeod in 1841, 1851, 1861 and with her son, John, in 1871. Her birth date is consistently placed around 1810 and in Ross-shire. The members of her families are crofters and fisherman by occupation. As I mentioned previously in another discussion, I am unable to locate the correct death certificate for Trump's ancestor Christine which would probably give us the names of her real parents. There are many Christine/Catherine MacLeods who died in the area and I do not have the money to buy all the possible death certificates.

To summarize, there are clearly two different Catherine MacLeods, clearly distinct from each other as they appear on four consecutive censuses, from 1841 until 1871 in different parts of Scotland and with different families. The Catherine MacLeod of Thurso, who is the daughter of Commissary Donald MacLeod and married William Telford, is clearly not the same Catherine MacLeod of Ross-Shire who married William MacLeod and is Trump's ancestor.

I hope that I have sufficiently explained why I believe that the lineage posted by Helgason is incorrect. It will take a lot more than a Facebook post by even the most acclaimed genealogist to reconcile such glaring and irreconcilable factual errors. I understand that he is a professional genealogist and I am a college student who is an armchair (or in my case a living-room sofa) genealogist as a hobby, but I stand by my document-based research. Only the discovery of a documented link between Catherine/Christine MacLeod of Ross-shire and Commissary Donald MacLeod and an explanation of how Helgason came to this connection would suffice to demonstrate Helgason’s assertion (incidentally he still has not responded to my message to him through Facebook). As it stands I remain adamant that Helgason’s lineage not be included here on Geni because of its factual shortcomings.

I would also highlight that the path which he posted has in the past been here on Geni but was removed due to the inaccuracies listed above, by people other than myself. It is even possible that he just used the pushpin functionality here on Geni or some website like it to find that lineage. Barring new evidence I shall let my research stand as my final statement and speak no further on this matter.

Best Wishes!

Tamas

Private User
7/5/2019 at 4:02 PM

Tamás, I will research what you have written above. Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

I understand that you do not like the theory of Oddur F. Helgason, but I have a right to pursue his theory here on geni.com. Rest assured that he did not use the "pushpin" technology here on Geni.com. Oddur has his own database and therein lies his data.

Wishing you a happy Friday afternoon from sunny California.

7/5/2019 at 4:52 PM

The link to royalty and hence common ancestry with the rest of Europe is this profile:

Isabella Munro

She is called “a daughter of Rev. Hugh Munro, minister of Durness

However I have yet to see a reference that she was a daughter of Hon. Anna Mackay

Private User I’m wondering why the published genealogy by the genealogist of United States Presidents seems not to impress you. Would you be able to explain that?

Private User
7/5/2019 at 6:08 PM

Erica, extensive records exist in Iceland thanks to church records, which are apparently more precise than the Mormons. Denmark previously owned Iceland as well as all the other Scandinavian countries. Given that the data originates in Scandinavia, I would place my bet on the Icelandic genealogist over the one from the United States.

It's helpful to keep the genealogical theory of Oddur F. Helgason as we research. For example, I'm told that the entire premise of a false pedigree hinges on the mother of Alexander Macleod, according to https://www.geni.com/people/Tamás-Caldwell-Gilbert/6000000001654183919. However, I have theories in another part of the chain for which I'm investigating.

It's a complicated matter and I would simply like to see the evidence. Also, there are perhaps some challenges to his royal lineage simply because some find POTUS 45 an unsavory character. If you look a the history of all the presidents, they are inter-related. It really is fascinating. The only president that I'm not related to is Woodrow Wilson and now Trump, according to Geni.com

I hope that helps explain my passion and my interest in the acclaimed Icelandic genealogist.

Private User
7/5/2019 at 6:13 PM

P.S. I have an interest in this pedigree because:

Isabella Munro is my 9th cousin five times removed.
Isabella Munro

Rev. Hugh Munro, minister of Durness is also my 8th cousin 6 times removed.
Rev. Hugh Munro, minister of Durness

Private User
7/5/2019 at 6:14 PM

And "Hon. Anna Mackay" is my 7th cousin 7 times removed.
Hon. Anna Mackay

7/5/2019 at 6:26 PM

Many of us have similar path relationships.

I’m really confused. Gary Boyd Roberts has been at this for many years, has the resources of the most prominent & oldest American genealogical Association at his disposal, and a partnership with Scotland People, the archival arm of the Scots government. Surely you’re not suggesting (gasp) a conspiracy or (gasp) political agenda? About Scots fishermen? Don’t you see that this is the very same genealogy problem faced by millions of immigrants to the US? He’s fortunate indeed he can trace back as far as he can; and there isn’t anyone professional (or acting “as if” they were) who wants anything but the facts. And the fact is that Commissary Macleod is a different family from a different time and place.

I hope that continued study into the Isle of Lewis families will reveal connections into other areas. We’ve already suggested an approach that has worked well for connecting other isolated populations: down tree, then across, then back up. There were immigrants to Canada I noticed, but those trees have not been developed on Geni.

Private User
7/5/2019 at 6:38 PM

I'm not insulting Gary Boyd Roberts at all. I am analyzing two professional opinions.

Sorry to give you the wrong impression. =)

7/5/2019 at 7:27 PM

Isabella Munro 5th cousin 9x removed

Rev. Hugh Munro 5yh cousin 9x removed

Hon. Anna Mackay 4th cousin 10x removed

just sayin' ...

Private User
7/5/2019 at 7:40 PM

Diana, we'll get to the bottom of this. I'm inclined to believe Oddur F. Helgason, but I'm still looking into what Tamás is saying. It's been a moving target about which profile changed to unlink POTUS 45. A whole series of changes were made and it's a puzzle.

7/5/2019 at 8:04 PM

None of my dna matches that involve Trump surname have trees. However, these are the surnames in the "ancestral surnames"...

Trump, Rosness, Devonald, Finnegan, Mankin

Trump, Strecker, Ernst, Gassman, Rogge.

Trump, Johnson, Bender, Hill, Jones, Nixon, Schmidt

Any of these sound familiar?

7/5/2019 at 8:21 PM

Private User There’s no mystery and it’s been explained several times.

The Geni tree was wrong in 2016. It was corrected in 2017. In 2018, a bad merge made the Geni tree wrong again. In 2019, it was corrected again.

The “bad profile merge” comes down to two people:

Catherine / Christine MacLeod
commissary Donald MacLeod

There is no reason in the world to think an Icelandic genealogist has access to information the rest of us don’t have. We have it, it’s perfectly clear what is proven and what isn’t, and where he went wrong in his tree construction.

Don’t you think if it were correct, NEHGR would have published it? It isn’t, they haven’t, and they won’t.

If there’s connections into other MacLeods on other islands, they have yet to be found by anyone.

I hope you can find it.

7/5/2019 at 8:26 PM

Diana separate the German from the Scots. The German possible Trump lines seem to have come to WV much earlier than the Scots from Isle of Lewis.

7/6/2019 at 3:47 PM

Are there any profiles on geni for Trump in WV? I am not sure where the dna matches are from

7/6/2019 at 5:17 PM

Look in Lloyd Doss tree & also mail him. He had Strumpf / Trumps (who may or may not be related to the president).

Of course as far as we know there are no Trumps in the president’s family who have done dna testing.

7/6/2019 at 5:41 PM

Lloyd is a distant cousin...I love him to death. I will talk to him. Thanks

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