Nissell Schick (Heller Segal) - Shmuel and Nissel Schick

Started by Randy Schoenberg on Monday, July 8, 2019
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7/8/2019 at 10:13 AM

I am severing these folks so we can work on a correct tree for them.

R' Shmuel Schick
Nissel Schick

Jacobi Papers, Vol. 4, p. 118, 11.2 says

R. Shmuel I (b) (?) Jacob IV Schik (p.d.; Ung. Brod; his said provenance and residence is conjectured, inter alia, because eventually his descendants (like those of 11.1 supra [R. Moshe VII (b) Jacob IV Schik (Ung. Brod. - Kaufmann LV 178)] settled in Slovakian villages; according to OR 19423ת he mainly adopted Schick as his family name, and thus is believed to be the progenitor of an independent separate line of family)

Nissel II (b) R. Nathan (-(?) Moshe) halevi Slaves see HELLER (S3) 11.3 (She was a great-granddaughter of R. "Tosfos"-Yomtov-Lipmann halevi-HELLER (M) 14.6; Schick Mi-Moshe 20). (According to OR 14618, she was a daughter of one R. Moshe (b) x HELLER.

Private User
7/8/2019 at 2:21 PM

Hi Randy,

Hands full here, so haven't got a chance to fully reply.

Could you kindly not sever any ties yet. I have seen radical errors in books, so before going ahead could you give me a couple of days to look at the issues you have raised regarding the schick family.

Also is there a PDF of the Jacobi Papers?

Thanks.

7/12/2019 at 5:23 PM

These are my 7th great grandparents! A number of Schick descendants who know more about these lines than I do have contributed to this tree, which you have severed.

ALSO, I believe the tree as it was for Nissel Schick was per The Unbroken Chain. I will check tonight or tomorrow.

But there should have been more of a discussion with the other Schick descendants since there are many of them. As I said, I only know about Schick what is in The Unbroken Chain.

7/12/2019 at 5:28 PM

What I can tell you is that these folks were in the SW Lithuania / NE Poland / Belarus area at this time since I know where the Margolis children of Mordechai Margolis and Nissel Schick lived.

I believe that the information about Nissel Schick was from David Tebele Efrati's genealogy of the Margolis family, some of which may be in dispute, but much of it was the basis for Neil Rosenstein's account of the early branches of the Margolis family. I'll look for the Hebrew Books link / reference and someone whose rabbi genealogy Hebrew is better than my modern Israeli Hebrew can see what Efrati says.

7/12/2019 at 5:33 PM

p. 43 The Unbroken Chain, Third Edition, Vol I gives the lineage of Nissel Schick.

And as I mentioned above, the children of Nissel Heller Segal and Samuel Schick all lived and were rabbis in the Grodno - Bialystok - Sejny - Lazdijai area. So Slovakian village as you mention above is VERY VERY unlikely. These were families who arrived to NE Poland / Belarus / SW Lithuania in the eastward movement of rabbinical families as they took positions further and further to the east, probably at the same time they were being pushed out of Central Europe.

7/12/2019 at 5:35 PM

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7/12/2019 at 5:45 PM

I've emailed Neil to comment in this discussion, at least about Nissel Heller Segal's family tree and his sources.

7/12/2019 at 5:57 PM

According to Neil Rosenstein for example, the daughter of Samuel Schick and Nissel Heller Segal, given name unknown, who married Mordechai Margolis was born in Tykocin and settled in Vilkaviškis.

So at least my branch of descendants of Samuel Schick and Nissel Heller Segal were never anywhere near Slovakian villages... All in the Suwalki Gubernia and nearby areas.

Tykocin https://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/community.php?usbgn=-533770&a...

Biyalstok https://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/community.php?usbgn=-493500&a...

Vilkaviškis https://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/community.php?usbgn=-2620625&...

Sejny https://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/community.php?usbgn=-527476&a...

Lazdijai https://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/community.phpusbgn=-2616153&a...

Kalvarija https://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/community.php?usbgn=-2615230&...

7/13/2019 at 9:34 PM

I'm reattaching Nissel Schick to the parents we had for her.

We can detach her later, depending upon Neil's response, but I can't even understand your citation and can't see it, so I'm going with what was in David Tebele Efrati's genealogy which I have ordered a hardcopy of through eBay.

7/13/2019 at 10:08 PM

I have heard back from Neil Rosenstein who provided his two sources, one of which is my relative David Tebele Efrati's 1875 genealogy of the Margolis family. The other discusses source, from 1903, the lineage to this Nissel Schick from the first Nissel, grandmother and namesake of Nissel Schick, the daughter of Tosfot Yom Tov:

Nissel Flekeles Horowitz (d.#5 Tosfot Yom Tov)

Neil also points out the fairly rare name, Nissel, used in this family, per Jewish custom by the way.

David Tebele Efrati's relationship to Nissel Schick was: https://www.geni.com/path/Nissell-Schick+is+related+to+David-Ephrat...

David Tebele Ephrath (Efrati) is Nissell Schick (Heller Segal)'s second great grandson!

So David Tevele Efrati was writing about a close ancestor, especially given how much shorter the generations were back then.

7/13/2019 at 10:30 PM

So we are discussing my family genealogy, written by one of my family, based on recent family relationships.

Now, you might claim it's a vanity genealogy except it's not reconstructing ancient history, it's within the memory lifetime of the various players.

David Tebele Efrati born December 19, 1849; his father born 1767; his paternal grandmother was born 1735 and lived to be 91 and died in Merkine (Meracz) not that long before David Tebele Efrati was born.

Nissel Segal dies 1639

Nissel Heller Segal born c. 1670

Then you have the geography. The Schick family and the descendants were in the same general area, all of which is centered on the Biyalstok - Grodno - Pruzhany area. Not Slovakian villages.

7/13/2019 at 10:43 PM

Neil further says that Jacobi's work is questionable and that he often did not provide sources. Neil knew Jacobi in Jerusalem.

So I question your detaching descendant built Schick and Heller trees based on on source without your being able to use the more common Hebrew rabbinical genealogies since you do not speak / read Hebrew.

I don't do Central European Jewish genealogy because I don't know the sources, don't read Czech, don't read German well.

I ask for help with rabbinical genealogies since my Hebrew is modern Hebrew.

I know you think you can detach based on a few day Public Discussion being open, but these are family genealogies that were built by Schick descendants and Margolis descendants, based on family knowledge.

One source, conveniently for you in a language you read, is not sufficient to detach long standing family trees.

7/13/2019 at 10:51 PM

Well, at least fix the dates of Nissel's father, who dies 100 years before Nissel is born, as it looks now. Rabbi Nathan Flekeles Horowitz

7/13/2019 at 10:53 PM

And the father that was attached to Shmuel dies 1612, which is currently over 50 years before Shmuel is born.

Menachem Manesch Mannes Schick

7/13/2019 at 10:55 PM

I was working on the Schicks in Vienna and Prague, which very much IS my field of expertise and these folks may be related but not in the way it was presented.

7/13/2019 at 10:59 PM

Yes, I noticed that the dates in the Heller tree were questionable and I will work on fixing them.

The Schicks in this part of the tree were Litvaks, at least in the 1700 - 1800s.

7/13/2019 at 11:02 PM

Again, I severed them because the parents of both Shmuel AND Nissel looked very wrong (not just a little wrong). It may be that Nissel's parent were correct but the dates were 100 years off on her father. But it seems pretty clear that the parents of Shmuel were wrong. Best to rebuild this section with some sources so we can get it right.

7/13/2019 at 11:08 PM
7/13/2019 at 11:12 PM

I concur with you that the Schick father for R' Shmuel Schick seems to be incorrect, but one source and a couple of days of Public Discussion is not sufficient to get descendant input in my view. I concur with you based on looking at the Revisions since the profile was added without parents and later connected to those parents.

On Nissel Schick, I will look into the date discrepancies but hopefully you can see how your abrupt severing of a family tree OUT OF CONTEXT without involving either Neil Rosenstein or the descendants was premature and perhaps in the future you will wait longer and seek more sources and inputs. I hope so.

7/13/2019 at 11:32 PM

I deleted the dates off of Nissel's father Nathan. They were clearly wrong. See if you can find the name of the father of Shmuel Schick.

7/13/2019 at 11:43 PM

I'm hoping that the descendants of the male offspring of Shmuel Schick will provide some information. I'll check The Unbroken Chain, I don't recall if Schick was included.

7/14/2019 at 12:12 AM

From the profile of R' Chanoch Henach Schick, A.B.D. Shklov

But I think taken from Neil Rosenstein's work, based on the sources cited.

The Schicks were descended from Rabbi Hanoch Heinich Schick of Shklov who is said to have married a daughter of. Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Rivlin.

This Shlomo Zalman had a first cousin of the same name, who was the father of the Gaon of Vilna. Although various book sources give variant genealogies of Rabbi Hanochs' ancestry, there is no doubt that he was descended from two famous scholars, Rabbi Yomtov Lipman Heller, the "Tosfot Yomtov" and Rabbi Meir Katzenellenbogen of Padua, the "Maharam Padua."

In fact there are two explanations for the name Schick taken from each of the first letters of the words spelling "Shem Yisrael Kodesh" or "Shmuel Yuda Katzenellenbogen" - son of Rabbi Meir of Padua.

R' Hanoch Heinich Schick, Av Beit Din Shklov was a contemporary of the Lubavitch Chassidic movement, R' Shneur Zalman of Liadi, author of Likutei Amarim ( or Baal HaTanya).

The 1804 edition of the tractate Avot with a commentary by the Gaon of Vilna, has an approbation by R' Hanoch.

His eulogy was published in Evel Keramim, by Judah Leib, son of the ABD Orsha.

For details on the Schick family see

Solomon Zvi Schick "MiMoshe Ad Moshe" (1903)

David Tebele Efrati, "Toldot Anshei Shame (1875).

"Torat Eidut HaZot, by Samuel Jungries, 1972. "Tiferet Asher by Jacob Zvi Jungries 1976, "Imrei David (1964) by Jekutiel Mordecai Schick.

7/14/2019 at 12:21 AM

I have attached a page from MiMoshe Ad Moshe (1903) cited above to the profiles of the two Nissels. The genealogy of R' Shmuel Schick is discussed at the end of the page but someone who reads this variety of Hebrew needs to look at it since both the language of rabbinical genealogies and the script are beyond me without a major effort.

7/14/2019 at 12:22 AM

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7/14/2019 at 12:46 AM

On the Wayback Machine I found a family tree for the Schicks developed by Neil Rosenstein that had Nissel Heller as the daughter, not the sister of Moshe. But I believe that contradicts MiMoshe Ad Moshe.

7/14/2019 at 1:28 AM

I added back the unknown mother (Heller) of Shmuel that Dudi added. I am pretty confident she doesn't belong with Menachem Schick in Vienna, whose wife Ester died in Prague.

7/14/2019 at 8:40 AM

Thanks for putting it back together.

7/14/2019 at 2:11 PM

Yes, Randy Schoenberg, I was thinking the same thing last night.

7/14/2019 at 2:13 PM

I'm going to check with Neil about Heller and whether he is publishing a genealogy for Heller and also where he places Nissel Schick -- daughter or sister of Moshe. And what evidence if any he has for Samuel Schick's ancestry.

7/18/2019 at 11:13 AM

Bumping this so that the Schick family sees it.

Showing 1-30 of 93 posts

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