Irmgard de Namur - Name of the wife of Herman van Malsen, lord of Cuijk

Started by Private User on Tuesday, October 29, 2019
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Private User
10/29/2019 at 12:40 AM

Wouldn't it be better to simply use N.N. of Namur as name for this lady.

The study of Hans Vogels from which her parentage is derived clearly states:

Haar naam is niet bekend maar wellicht heeft ze [Ermengard] geheten naar de moeder van graaf Albert II. Laten we voorlopig maar van deze hypothese uitgaan.

In English: her name is not known but she might have been called [Ermengard] after the mother of count Albert II. Let's stick with that hypothesis for now.

As far as I know geni policy says that a hypothesis should never be presented as a fact. The name Irmgard/Ermengard clearly is a hypothesis. So my suggestion is not to use it on geni.

In fact, it is not 100% certain that the wife of Herman van Malsen was a daughter of Albert II of Namur and Regelindis of Lorraine, so if you are looking at this academically then the link between her and her parents should also be broken...

I will see if I can translate the full text of the excurs of Hans Vogels in English, so that it can be understood by non-Dutch speaking members as well

Private User
10/29/2019 at 4:25 AM

If we actually followed your advice about a 100% of certainty, we would likely have to cut off 99% of the profiles before the modern times churc records entered the scene. In many of thoose older uncertain profiles, I instead recommend the use of questionsmarks combined with information regarding any uncertainty written down in the about me field.

Private User
10/29/2019 at 9:55 AM

Hi Ulf, where do you draw the line? In this case, there is sound argumentation why Herman of Malsen would have been married to a daughter (with unknown name) of Albert of Namur. But I have also seen cases where it is pure guessing/speculations.

I would at least suggest to cut off the parents for a profile in case there are more valid suggestions for a person's parentage, because in that case, how do you choose which path to follow. Like for example Herman of Malsen's own parentage, where I have seen at least two theories (son of Unruoch or son of Herman/grandson of Unruoch) that might both be true but that might also be not true...

And I would still urge to rename this profile to "N.N. of Namur" because the name Irmgard is pure speculation, only based on the fact that Albert II of Namur would probably have named one of his daughters after his grandmother, so why not this one? I know that Hans Vogels prefers to give people a name, but he always puts these hypothetical names between brackets to indicate that it is a hypothesis. Something which geni does not allow or at least does not like

Private User
10/29/2019 at 11:59 AM

I have completed the full translation of the article of Hans Vogels about the wife of Herman of Malsen on the Dutch Charlemagne ancestry website, so that everybody can read it and decide for himself how certain or uncertain his wife's parentage is.

Private User
10/29/2019 at 2:28 PM

Irmgard/Ermengard in brackets or just the name followed by a ?, or N.N., is really a non problem. We had a case where people couldn't decide one out of two names, if we used one of them, someone else changed it to the other, so the simple solution was to display her with both of the names as a double name. As long as the parents are right, the better half and the profile can't be mixed up with any sibbling, it really doesn't matter too much, in our case, 400 years after or in yours, 1000 years after.

Private User
10/29/2019 at 10:29 PM

Well, for now, we can't change anything because moderator Pam Wilson (may be slow to respond) has blocked the names. So I hope she'll read this and gets in touch or makes a correction herself

10/30/2019 at 10:38 PM

I've made changes.

10/30/2019 at 10:38 PM

I need to know if the uncertainty about her identity applies to both husbands listed?

Private User
10/31/2019 at 12:28 AM

Hi Pam Wilson (may be slow to respond). Thanks for making the changes.

With respect to your question: the marriage with Cono of Montaigu should be removed altogether. That is really an error that was probably introduced by the merge of unrelated profiles.

In the 1970s it was suggested that Herman of Malsen married a sister of Godfrey of Bouillon, who later married Cono of Montaigu. This theory was rejected in the 2000s and replaced with the theory that Herman of Malsen instead married a daughter of Albert II of Namur and that the chronicles who mentioned a marriage of Cono of Montaigu with a sister of Godfrey of Bouillon must have had it wrong. Other - more thrustworthy - contemporary sources clearly mention that Cono was married to daughter of count Lambert named Ida and do not mention a second marriage. See e.g. Andrew Murray's book on the counts of Boulogne and the first crusade. There is not a single article that suggests that Cono of Montaigu ever married a daughter of Albert II of Namur.

So I would appreciate if the marriage of this profile with Cono of Montaigu can be removed completely and that the profile is only connected to Herman of Malsen and his children.

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