Urraca d'Ivrea - Urraca doesn't exist?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Wednesday, December 25, 2019
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12/25/2019 at 6:55 AM

George Louis Leonardus Maria Brouwers says
Your source:

http://www.thepeerage.com/p392.htm is regularly cited as a source. This is not justified. Urraca is no longer on this site.
kathy@abitofhistory.net from www.abitofhistory.net/.
She did’t answer my mail !!!!!!!

does not excist.

Berengarius II. King of Italy, Margrave of Ivrea, Piëdmont and Lombardije ± 900-966 son of Adalbert.
Willa from Toscany ± 912-970

Gothelo (Gozello) I von Lothringen, the great, Marquis of Antwerp ± 967-1044
Urraca van Ivrea (Urraca van Lombardije) 965-1007 daughter of Berengarius II.

This can be found in ISBN 978 90 6455 690 6 and on a number of websites of interested parties in genealogy.

By reporting to the Geni team: Urraca d’Ivrea did not exist, some reactions from members of this team.
7-12-2019 15:31 mailed Everard van Dijk (Geni): You can write the name of this lady in several ways. It seems that you are right because the possible one, such as Godfreid III the Lovian, is linked to other parents.
Also with the traffic jams of Manfred Hiebl I find no support for Urraca d'Ivrea as a great-great-granddaughter of Gysela de Cysion.
Similarly, Urraca d’Ivrea described in: https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000004998941157
finds no support at Manfred Hiebl and or in Wikipedia.

7-12-2019 16:48 Everard van Dijk sent me the hyperlink:

7-12-2019 18:31 Ulf Martinsson (Geni) tells me: You seem to be right by saying that Irraca d’Ivrea (also known by other names) did not exist. The name of Gothhelo's wife is unknown.

The link, http://familytrees.genopro.com/Azrael/Skaggs/diIvrea-Urraca-ind1843... see at Everard van Dijk has no sources.

7-12-2019 22:13 Everard van Dijk formed me, among other things: that there are few or no good sources that fit the time. Usually only descriptions of men rarely of associated women and first recorded at the monasteries. Then in our time researched by scientists at the Universities in Europe.

Continued on the basis of the above information.

Urraca d’Ivrea:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berengarius_II 7 children. Urraca is not listed here.
https://familypedia.wikia.org/wiki/Berengar_II_of_Italy_(900-966) 7 children, no Urraca.

Wikipedia doesn't pay attention to her.

Manfred Hiebl, an authoritative author in the field of genealogy in the Middle Ages, does not record Urraca d’Ivrea anywhere. www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/
The Urraca d’Ivrea name does not appear in the Medieval Wickerwork CD-ROM published by the Dutch Genealogical Society in 2011 either. no wife is listed here at Gozello I van Lotharingen.

Urraca d’Ivrea does not appear in authoritative sources on the Internet.

WorldCat.org: The World's Largest Library Catalog. Urraca d’Ivrea does not appear in WorldCat.

http://www.thepeerage.com/p392.htm is regularly cited as a source. This is not justified. Urraca is no longer on this site.

Conclusion: After research, I discovered that Urraca d ’Ivrea did not exist, is a fabrication of genealogists. And at least not a daughter of Berengarius II of Ivrea and great-granddaughter of Gysela de Cysion.
It seems normal to me to ensure that our offspring get good info. If one wants to include her name anyway, this must be handled with care. If you do not want to remove her, renaming with N.N. is the right way.
Another possibility is to put a question mark after her name. Remove her parents. After all, she is not mentioned with the children of Berengarius II.
As a result of the above, i searched a few sites at Geni that need improvements:
See his children here: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berengarius_II Urraca is not listed here.
There are also a number of sources that do not mention Urraca:
http://www.thepeerage.com/p392.htm#i3913 Not justified. Urraca is no longer on this site.
http://www.thepeerage.com/p7514.htm#i75135 Not justified. Urraca is no longer on this site.

Urraca d’Ivrea is listed here as the daughter of Berengar II and as the wife of Gothelo I. Here one could at least place a question mark at Urraca d’Ivrea. And remove the connection with Berengar II.

Immediate family: Son of Gothelo I "the Great", duke of Lorraine and Urraca d'Ivrea.
Place or remove a question mark at least at Urraca d’Ivrea.

wife of Gothelo “the Great”...
wife of Gothelo “the Great”...
Urraca d 'Ivrea, daughter of Berengar II or Ivrea, King of Italy and Willa, wife of Gothelo I "the Great",
Place a question mark at least at Urraca d’Ivrea. And remove the connection with Berengar II.
This site also gives as source: http://www.thepeerage.com/p392.htm
Not rightly so. Urraca is no longer on this site.

George Brouwers, December 23, 2019. Oisterwijk NL., Esschebaan 152, 5062BG georgebrouwers@planet.nl

Private User
12/25/2019 at 7:18 AM

Livio Scremin please?

12/25/2019 at 7:54 AM

Not mentioned in Medlands http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20ITALY%20900-1100.htm#Ber... as a daughter of Berengario:

BERENGARIO d´Ivrea, son of ADALBERTO I Conte e Marchese d'Ivrea & his first wife Gisela di Friulia ([900]-in prison Bamberg 6 Jul 966, bur Regensburg). Liutprand names Berengar as son of "Adelberto Eporegiæ civitatis marchione [et]…Gisla Berengarii regis filia"[537]. He took part in the battle of Firenzuola against his maternal grandfather. He succeeded his father in [923/24] as BERENGARIO II Marchese d'Ivrea. In [940], he was forced to flee Ivrea by Ugo King of Italy who abolished the March of Ivrea. He was invited to the court of King Ugo, who intended to blind him, but was warned by Ugo's son Lothar and made his escape. He found refuge with Hermann Duke of Swabia, and later settled at the court of Otto I King of Germany. After returning to Italy in 945, he defeated King Ugo who was declared deposed by a diet at Milan, although Berengario allowed him to retain the title of king and himself assumed the title summus consiliarius[538]. He was proclaimed BERENGARIO II King of Italy by a general diet at Pavia 15 Dec 950, after the death of Lothar King of Italy. However, King Otto invaded Italy, on the pretext of King Berengario's mistreatment of Adelais, the wife of his predecessor King Lothar, and himself took the title King of Italy at Pavia 23 Sep 951. Having submitted to Otto, Berengario proposed himself as viceroy in Italy, which was accepted by the council of Augsburg Aug 952. Berengario reasserted his independence. Otto sent his son Liudolf to reimpose order, but the latter died there of fever in 957. After several further years of tyrannical rule, Otto invaded Italy again in Aug 961 in response to requests for his intervention from Pope John XII and Hubert [de Provence] Duke of Spoleto, one of Berengario's main vassals. He forced Berengario's retreat to the fortress of San Giulio near Montefeltro in 962. He finally captured Berengario in 963, and took him as a prisoner to Bamberg, where he died soon after[539]. The necrology of Fulda records the death "966 2 Non Aug" of "Berenger rex"[540]. Regino records the death of Berengario and his burial at Regensburg[541].

m ([930/31]) WILLA d’Arles, daughter of BOSO Comte d’Avignon Marchese of Tuscany & his wife Willa --- ([910]-Bamberg after 966). "Bertam, Willam, Richildam et Gislam" are named (in order) as the four daughters of Boso and Willa by Liutprand[542]. Willa is named "rex Hugo neptim suam…ex Willa uxore sua Boso Tusciæ provinciæ marchio regis frater" by Liutprand when he records her marriage to Berengario[543]. She ordered the imprisonment of Adelheid, widow of her husband's predecessor Lothar [de Provence] King of Italy. She retreated with her husband to the fortress of San Giulio in the face of Otto King of Germany's invasion, but was captured and taken to Bamberg with Berengario. Regino records that Willa became a nun after her husband died before he was buried[544].

Berengario & his wife had [seven] children:

1. ADALBERTO d´Ivrea ([932/936]-Autun 30 Apr 971[545]). Liudprand names "Adalbertus" as son of "Berengarius"[546]. His father installed him in 951 as ADALBERTO associate-King of Italy. When Otto I King of Germany invaded Italy in 962, Adalberto retreated with his brother Guido to fortresses near Lakes Como and Garda. Conspiring with Pope John XII, he entered Rome in Oct 963 but was put to flight by Emperor Otto in the following month, along with Pope John whom Otto deposed for his betrayal. Adalberto wandered the Mediterranean for three years unsuccessfully attempting to find support, and eventually retired to lands in the valley of the Saône. m (before [960/62]) as her first husband, GERBERGE, daughter of --- & his wife Adélaïde [de Bourgogne] ([945]-11 Dec [986/991]). Her name and her two marriages are confirmed by the Chronicle of Saint-Bénigne, interpolated into the Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines, which names "Guilelmum Ottonem et eius matrem Gerbergam" when recording that her son was adopted by his mother's second husband "dux Burgundie Henricus"[547]. Her birth date is estimated from the estimated birth date of her son in [960/62]. The Vita of Hugues Comte de Chalon refers to his (unnamed) sister as having married the Duke of Burgundy[548]. Chronologically, this refers most probably to Duke Henri who died in 1002, although the original of this document has not yet been consulted to check whether the wording supports this conclusion. Gerberge's origin has not yet been corroborated in the other primary sources so far consulted. The Vita appears to indicate that she was Gerberge, daughter of Lambert Comte de Chalon, but this raises several problems if it is correct. Firstly, on the death without direct heirs in 1039 of her supposed brother Hugues Comte de Chalon, the county was inherited by the comparatively obscure children of his younger sister Mathilde, apparently ignoring the superior claims of Gerberge's own numerous descendants, among whom were the powerful counts palatine of Burgundy who would presumably not have missed the opportunity of acquiring another county. Rodulfus Glaber does record that "Hugo filius Lanberti Cabilonensis comitis…episcopus Autissioderi" was an opponent of "Willemus, Henrici ducis priuignus, Adalberti Longobardorum ducis filius"[549], which could explain why Bishop Hugues favoured his nephew by his younger sister to succeed to his county. Nevertheless, after the bishop's death, his past opposition to Comte Otto-Guillaume may have provided an excuse for his son to intervene in the Chalon succession if he had a legitimate claim. Secondly, considering the likely birth date of her son, Gerberge's first marriage must have taken place while her husband and father-in-law were still reigning kings of Italy. They were under continuous pressure from Otto I King of Germany and it is likely that Adalberto's marriage could have brought additional political support. It is not clear how the relatively obscure count of Chalon could have provided this support. Thirdly, after the death in 978 of Lambert Comte de Chalon, and his widow's second marriage to Geoffroy I Comte d'Anjou, no record has been found of Henri Duke of Burgundy intervening to prevent Comte Geoffroy taking control of the county of Chalon, which would have been the likely course of action if his wife was the deceased count's oldest child. Fourthly, Gerberge's estimated birth date creates serious chronological problems if she was the daughter of Lambert's only known wife Adelais. In conclusion, considerable doubt appears to subsist concerning this origin of Gerberge, although no alternative can so far be proposed if we are to respect the wording of the Vita. She married secondly Henri Duke of Burgundy [Capet]. The necrology of Auxerre cathedral records the death 11 Dec of "Gerberga comitissa uxor Henrici ducis"[550]. Adalberto & his wife had [two] children:

a) GUGLIELMO d´Ivrea ([960/62]-Dijon 21 Sep 1026). Rodulfus Glaber names "Willemus, Henrici ducis priuignus, Adalberti Longobardorum ducis filius" and records that, as a boy, he was secretly stolen from the land of the Lombards and restored to his mother with no small cunning by a certain monk[551]. "Einricus…imperator" confirmed the property of the abbey of Fruttuaria, referring to property donated by "Otto qui et Vuillielmus comes filius Adalberti nepos Berengarii regis", by charter dated 1014[552]. It is assumed from this that he was imprisoned as a child by Emperor Otto I in Italy after his father and paternal grandfather were deposed as kings of Italy. The Chronicle of Saint-Bénigne, interpolated into the Chronicle of Alberic de Trois-Fontaines, names "Guilelmum Ottonem et eius matrem Gerbergam" when recording that he was adopted by his mother's second husband "dux Burgundie Henricus"[553]. He adopted the name OTHON-GUILLAUME. He succeeded as OTHON [I] Comte de Mâcon, by right of his first wife.


b) [WILLIBIRG. Jackman suggests[554] that the mother of Hunfried canon at Strasbourg was the daughter of Adalberto associate King of Italy. He bases this on onomastic reasons, in particular the importation of the Ivrean name Berengar into the family of Liutold and the use of "Willa" among the ancestors of Adalbert King of Italy. However, another origin is suggested by the necrology of Zwiefalten which records the death "XIV Kal Dec" of "Unruoch proavus Liutoldi comitis"[555]. If this great grandfather were the father of Willibirg, it may also explain how the name Berenger entered the family, assuming Unruoch was related to the Unruochingi Counts of Friulia. m LIUTOLD Graf im Sundgau, son of KONRAD Duke of Swabia [Konradiner] & his wife Richlint of Germany.]

2. GUIDO d´Ivrea ([940]-killed in battle on the Po 25 Jun 965). The Gesta Mediolanensium names (in order) "Widone, Adelberto et Conone" as sons of King Berengario (although Adalberto was presumably the oldest son as his father installed him as associated king), specifying that "Widone" was killed soon after his father's capture[556]. Marchese d'Ivrea (957-62). He conquered Spoleto and Camerino in 959. When Otto I King of Germany invaded in 962, Guido retreated with his brother Adalberto to fortresses near Lakes Como and Garda. "Otto…imperator augustus" gave property "in comitatu Motinense seu Boloniense" previously held by "Uuidoni quondam marchioni seu Conrado qui et Cono…filiis Berengarii seu Uuille ipsius Berengarii uxoris eorumque matris" to Guido Bishop of Modena by charter dated 12 Sep 963[557]. The necrology of Merseburg records the death "25 Jun" of "Vuido filius Berengaris regis"[558].

3. CORRADO CONO d´Ivrea (-[998/1001]). The Gesta Mediolanensium names (in order) "Widone, Adelberto et Conone" as sons of King Berengario, specifying that "Conone" made peace with the emperor[559]. Marchese of Milan [957-61]. "Otto…imperator augustus" gave property "in comitatu Motinense seu Boloniense" previously held by "Uuidoni quondam marchioni seu Conrado qui et Cono…filiis Berengarii seu Uuille ipsius Berengarii uxoris eorumque matris" to Guido Bishop of Modena by charter dated 12 Sep 963[560]. He abandoned his brother Adalberto, recognising the authority of the emperor, and was installed in [965] as CORRADO Marchese d'Ivrea. "Corado qui et Cona marchio, f. bonæ memoriæ Berengarii regis, et Yhilda filia Ardoini marchionis, jugales" donated property to the church of Vercelli by charter dated 1 Oct 987[561]. "Conradus marchio, Berengarii regis filius et Richilda uxor" donated property to the church of Milan by charter dated 989[562]. m (before 1 Oct 987) RICHILDA, daughter of ARDOINO "Glabrio" Marchese of Turin & his wife --- (-after 989). "Corado qui et Cona marchio, f. bonæ memoriæ Berengarii regis, et Yhilda filia Ardoini marchionis, jugales" donated property to the church of Vercelli by charter dated 1 Oct 987[563]. "Conradus marchio, Berengarii regis filius et Richilda uxor" donated property to the church of Milan by charter dated 989[564].

4. GISLA d´Ivrea . "Gislam [et]…Girbergam" are named as daughters of Berengar and Willa by Liutprand[565]. The primary source which confirms her marriage has not yet been identified. Nun, living 965. [566][m RAMBOLDO [II], son of [RAMBOLDO [I] & his wife ---] (-before 1040). According to the Almanach de Gotha, Ramboldo I was ancestor of the family Collalto[567]. According to Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, he was sent to Treviso by Otto I King of Germany 14 Nov 944[568]. Ancestors of the Conti di Treviso e Collalto.]

5. GILBERGA d´Ivrea (945-). "Gislam [et]…Girbergam" are named as daughters of Berengar and Willa by Liutprand[569]. "Berengarius et Adelbertus filius eius…Reges" confirmed a donation to the abbey of Grazano by "Aledramus Marchio filius Gulielmi Comitis et Gilberga filius D. Berengarii Regis, et Anselmus seu Oddo germani lege viventes Salica", for the soul of "quondam Gulielmi qui fuit filius et filiaster atque germanus noster", by charter dated Aug 951[570]. The dating of this charter is dubious, assuming that Gilberga´s date of birth is correct as shown above. m (before Aug 961) as his second wife, ALERAMO Signor del Marchio del Monferrato, son of Conte GUGLIELMO [Monferrato] & his wife --- (-[967/91]).

6. ROZALA [Suzanne] d´Ivrea ([950/960]-13 Dec 1003 or 7 Feb 1004, bur Gent, church of the Abbey de Saint-Pierre du Mont-Blandin). Regino records that two of the daughters (unnamed) of ex-King Berengario were brought up in the imperial palace by the empress after being brought to Germany[571]. One of these two daughters was presumably Rozala, bearing in mind that the emperor arranged her marriage. The Genealogica Comitum Flandriæ Bertiniana names "filiam Berengeri regis Langobardorum, Ruzelam quæ et Susanna" as wife of Comte Arnoul[572]. The Annales Elnonenses Minores record the marriage [undated between 950 and 968] of "Arnulfus iunior" and "filiam Beregeri regis Susannam"[573]. Her marriage was presumably arranged by Emperor Otto to increase his influence in Flanders at a time when Lothaire IV King of the West Franks was asserting his own control over the county. According to Nicholas, Count Arnoul II married Rozala d´Ivrea when he reached the age of majority in 976[574], but the source on which this is based has not been located. "Baldwinus marchysus cum matre sua Susanna" donated "villam Aflingehem…jacentem in pago Tornacinse" to Saint-Pierre de Gand, after the death of "Arnulfi marchysi", by charter dated 1 Apr 988, signed by "…Waldberto advocato, Theoderico comite, Arnulfo comite, Artoldo comite, Baldwino comite, item Arnulfo comite…"[575]. The Vita Sancti Bertulfi names "Rozala filia…Berengarii Regis Italiæ", specifying that "post mortem Arnulfi [Balduini filius] principis, Roberto Regi Francorum nupsit et Susanna dicta"[576]. Kerrebrouck, presumably basing his supposition on this passage from the Vita Sancti Bertulfi, says that she adopted the name Suzanne on her second marriage[577], but the sources quoted above show that she was referred to by this name earlier. Hugues "Capet" King of France arranged her second marriage to his son and heir, apparently as a reward for Flemish help when he seized power in 987[578]. She was given Montreuil-sur-Mer by the county of Flanders as her dowry on her second marriage. Richer records that King Robert repudiated his wife "Susannam…genere Italicam eo quod anus esset" but refused to allow her to retake her castle at Montreuil, whereupon she constructed another nearby[579]. She returned to Flanders after she was repudiated by her second husband, and became one of the principal advisers of her son Count Baldwin IV. France retained Montreuil-sur-Mer. "Susanna regina cum filio suo Baldwino" donated "alodem suum…Atingehem…et in Testereph" to Saint-Pierre de Gand, for the soul of "filie sue Mathildis", by charter dated 26 Jun 995[580]. "Susanna regina…cum filio suo Baldwino" donated "alodem suum…in pago Flandrensi…in Holtawa…in Fresnere…in Clemeskirca…in Jatbeka…in Sclefteta…" to Saint-Pierre de Gand by charter dated 1 Jun 1003[581]. The Annales Elnonenses Minores records the death in 1003 of "Susanna regina"[582]. The Memorial of "regina Susanna" records her death "VII Feb"[583]. m firstly ([968][584]) ARNOUL II “le Jeune” Count of Flanders, son of BAUDOUIN III joint Count of Flanders & his wife Mechtild of Saxony [Billung] ([961/62]-30 Mar 987, bur Ghent). m secondly (988 before 1 Apr, repudiated [991/92]) as his first wife, ROBERT Associate-King of France, son of HUGUES Capet King of France & his wife Adelais d’Aquitaine (Orléans ([27 Mar] 972-Château de Melun 20 Jul 1031, bur église de l'Abbaye royale de Saint-Denis). He succeeded his father in 996 as ROBERT II "le Pieux" King of France.

7. [BERTA . The primary source which confirms her parentage has not yet been identified. Abbess of San Sisto at Piacenza 952.]

Private User
12/25/2019 at 8:37 AM

Berengar II de Ivrea, rey de Italia es tu 31º bisabuelo.
Urraca d'Ivrea is your 30th great grandmother.
Did the toast go wrong?
¿el brindis les cayó mal ?

12/25/2019 at 8:41 AM

Private User nice game for the Christmas holidays, let's see if the festive genealogists find something, for the moment I mark it as an online character and I enjoy the holidays (Merry Christmas:)

Private User
12/25/2019 at 8:47 AM

Merry Christmas!

I'm doing what I actually enjoy most these day, :D



Studying ancient tomes and learning ancient languages along with ancient history...

12/25/2019 at 9:00 AM

ah another very small contribution that for the moment I can leave is that the word "Urraca" is not present in the very long father's official Italian encyclopedic page (linked in his profile;)

Private User
12/25/2019 at 10:24 AM

If ya'll can 'bear' ;) with me, I'll try to share what I'm finding so far. This text is old in both language and font, so it's rather difficult to read. I only understand 'un peu' French language, although I'm thankful for that as it's better than nothing. I need to utilize the Translate in order to make better sense of it, which involves first cleaning up the text and then sprucing up the translation in keeping with modern expressions.

I've learned primarily (so far) that Gothelo (alleged husband of Urraca of Milan) did live in Italy. In fact it appears that he grew up there.

"& par la bónne comtesse Mathilde vesue de Godefroy comte de Verdun, & d'Ardenne, lors encores viuant, en viduité audict Verdun, avec deux de ses enfans, sçavoir Fredericus qui avoit translaté le droict du comté audict Haymo, & son frere Hermânus. Ses deux au tres enfans, sçavoir Godefridus quiavoit succedé à la comté d'Ardenne, suyvoit la court de l'empereur Henry en Alemagne. Et le plus jeune Gozelo, ou Gothelo estoit en Italie, comme dessus a esté dict."


"& by the good countess Mathilde wife of Godefroy count of Verdun & d'Ardenne, then still living, not hearing from Verdun, with two of his children, knowing Fredericus had translated the right of the county after hearing Haymo & his brother Hermânus.

"[Godfrey's] two very young children, knowing Godefridus who had succeeded the county of Ardenne, followed the court of the emperor Henry in Germany. And the youngest Gozelo, or Gothelo was in Italy, as above was dictated."

it's garbled, but the correct family members are all present: Godfrey, Matilda, and Gothelo/Gozelo. And it clearly states that the youngest child, Gothelo (alleged future husband of "Urraca") was left behind in Italy as the rest of the family apparently moved to Germany.

Private User
12/25/2019 at 10:30 AM
Private User
12/25/2019 at 10:50 AM

I'm translating something really good right now, wait and see.

Private User
12/25/2019 at 11:26 AM

On p.450 of the pdf copy of the same book:

"Gothelo, aliàs Ezzo fils de Godefroy d'Ardenne l'ancien & frere du Godefroy le jeune

"...Ie trouve que sa femme nommée Iunca sut fille de Berengier roy d'Italie: De la quelle il eut troys filz, l'vn nommé Fredericus, qui sut Pape nommé Estienne neufieme du nom, l'autre Gozelo, qui estoit aucunement insensé & quasi fol, comme dict Hermãnus contractus."


"Gothelo, aliàs Ezzo son of Godefroy d'Ardenne the elder & brother of Godefroy the younger...

"...I find that his wife named Iunca was daughter of Berengier Roy of Italy: From which he had three sons, one named Fredericus, who knew Pope named Estienne ninth by name, the other Gozelo, who was in no way insane & almost fol, as dict Hermãnus contractus."

According to this 16th century historian, Richard de Wassebourg, who is highly regarded by the University of Lorraine,

Gothelo Sr., son of Godfrey Sr. of Ardennes (etc.) had wife by the name of "Iunca" who was the daughter of Berengier king of Italy.

Some leniency must be given for the text font, however (v is often written as u; and j is often seen as i); so her name may have been "Ivnca" or "Junca" if such names exist.


Private User
12/25/2019 at 11:57 AM

Iunca or Junca is fairly obscure for me, but it exists and was probably well known at the time she was born.

"Verecundus (fl. 552) was a 6th-century writer and the bishop of Iunca (or Junca) in Roman North Africa (the modern Tunisia).[1] He was an ardent champion of the Three Chapters."

It seems a reasonable choice of name for an Italian family which produced a pope.

Private User
12/25/2019 at 12:04 PM

They lived during the time of the Holy Roman Empire.

"On 25 December 800, Pope Leo III crowned the Frankish king Charlemagne as Emperor, reviving the title in Western Europe, more than three centuries after the fall of the earlier ancient Western Roman Empire in 476. The title continued in the Carolingian family until 888 and from 896 to 899, after which it was contested by the rulers of Italy in a series of civil wars until the death of the last Italian claimant, Berengar I, in 924. The title was revived again in 962 when Otto I was crowned emperor, fashioning himself as the successor of Charlemagne[10] and beginning a continuous existence of the empire for over eight centuries.[11][12][13] Some historians refer to the coronation of Charlemagne as the origin of the empire,[14][15] while others prefer the coronation of Otto I as its beginning.[16][17] Scholars generally concur, however, in relating an evolution of the institutions and principles constituting the empire, describing a gradual assumption of the imperial title and role.[8][14]"



Private User
12/25/2019 at 1:59 PM

I was in a hurry and meant to translate it a little better than that:

"Gothelo, aliàs Ezzo son of Godefroy d'Ardenne the elder, & brother of Godefroy the younger...

"...I find that his wife named Iunca was daughter of Berengar king of Italy: From which he had three sons, one named Frederick, known as Pope Stephen IX; the other Gozelo, who was in no way insane & almost a fool, as according to Hermãnus Contractus."

Private User
12/25/2019 at 2:00 PM
12/27/2019 at 5:42 PM

I offer another interesting perspective, one of the sons became pope:
Frederick of Lorraine, pope Stephen IX

and the "encyclopedia of the popes" (& others) to 2000 have not yet found a mother for him
*http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/stefano-ix_%28Enciclopedia-dei-... - "il nome della madre è ignoto"

12/27/2019 at 6:23 PM

*however wiki ita instead offers a scheme of complete maternal ancestry (to the pope) [from 2017]

"Barbe di Lebarten ... of Ottone, of Eberardo III, Eberardo II" :O
who gives a controlled?

Private User
12/27/2019 at 7:11 PM

I trust my source. The encyclopedia is in error of omission, because the name of his mother IS known: Iunca/Junca, the daughter of Berengar.

"...the name Barbe de Lebarten (and in fact her entire ancestry), being a spurious concoction of later genealogists.[1][2]"


(And in fact Barbe de Lebarten as such doesn't exist in ANY serious history books.)

But Iunca/Junca, daughter of Berengar -- exists.


12/27/2019 at 10:11 PM

We need primary, not secondary, sources.

12/27/2019 at 10:18 PM
Private User
12/28/2019 at 1:46 AM

Although my effort was not well received, I nevertheless have no regrets. ;)

Sharon Doubell, good luck finding primary sources for that time period in Italy. Hope this helps:


Private User
12/28/2019 at 1:54 AM

You'll never find a "primary" source for documenting the mother of Pope Stephen IX. It it existed, we'd know of it by now. But I wish you luck, anyway. As for me, I'm done playing this game.

Nevertheless, he had a mother. And we have reasonable and credible evidence of who she was. Richard Wassebourg was a credible, authoritative historian. I'm sorry we don't agree.

Private User
12/28/2019 at 1:57 AM

Richard de Wassebourg,


Archdeacon of the church of Verdun. - Historian

We are clearly not on the same page.

12/28/2019 at 5:58 AM

this Private User passage is very interesting:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k8716691b/f450.image - " ...femme nommée Iunca fut fille de Berengier roy d'Italie: De la quelle il eut troys filz, I'vn nommé Fredericus, qui fut Pape....."

Debra Denman Pro 25-12-2019 at 10:59. You quote Richard de Wassebourg: “Gothelo Sr. had a woman named Iunca (Ivnca - Junca) who was the daughter of Berengier Roy of Italy ”. And then place the following hyperlink. in which I cannot find the above information. https://crulh.univ-lorraine.fr/sites/crulh.univ-lorraine.fr/files/d...

Incidentally, the name Urraca is not listed here. And it is the starting point of our discussion: URRACA D’IVREA / URRACA OR LOMBARDY / URRACA LOMBARD OR LOMBARDY does not excist.

Debra Denman PRO 25/12/2019 at 8:57 You indicate that Iunca or Junca is pretty obscure to me, but it exists and was probably well known at the time she was born. "Verecundus (fl. 552) was a 6th-century writer and bishop of Iunca (or Junca) in Roman North Africa (modern Tunisia). [1] He was an avid champion of the three chapters." It seems a reasonable choice of name for an Italian family that has produced a pope.
Here Iunca or Junca is a surname while Urraca is a first name.

12/28/2019 at 10:20 AM

the line of Gothelo I "the Great", duke of Lorraine is OK? 3 wife:
-1) Barbe de Lebarton (so now marked false historical.. speculative) .
-2) wife of Gothelo “the Great” (so double name to fix? ..for sure 1007 date of death to be removed: I tried to look at where it came from, and we carry it forward from the beginning).
-3) Adelaide de Lorraine, comtesse de Lower Lorraine [(a his granddaughter) also she removed from the source]

12/28/2019 at 11:32 AM

So- pending primary sources - which do not appear to exist - I'm happy to delete wife of Gothelo “the Great”'s profile.

12/28/2019 at 11:43 AM

As you say - Gothelo I "the Great", duke of Lorraine does not appear to have primary sources for any of his wives. I'll start a Discussion from his profile.

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