Started by Debbie Gambrell on Saturday, April 25, 2020
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4/25/2020 at 9:16 PM

I was using the Geni relationship pathway as a guideline for adding this profile to my personal tree on Ancestry. I ran into conflicting Wikipedia pages. The one used as a source for the Geni profile doesn't have any sources I'm able to check; whereas this one does but the problem is, it has a totally different maternal line.

Both Wikpedia sources agree that Bernard III is Henry's father, but whereas the one used for the Geni profile has Henry's mother as Brigitte The Wikipedia page below has Bernard III only married once, to a woman named Judith, no mention of a Brigitte. However, this page does offer sources that I was able to check:


I checked one of the references and it does indicate Henry's mother was Judith, not Brigitte. Again, not even a mention of Bernard having any other wife than Judith:

Bernhard III, Count of Aschersleben, Duke of Saxony
----------- ------
around 1140- probably Feb. 1212

Buried: in the Benedictine monastery in Ballenstedt

oo Judith, daughter of Mieszkos III. from Poland
* around 1154, + before 1202

The youngest son Albrecht the Bear received the county of Aschersleben in 1170 when the askanian heritage was shared . After the fall of Henry the Lion in 1180, he was vested with the eastern half of the Duchy of Saxony , but encountered the resistance of the spiritual and secular princes and counts striving for greater autonomy. While Bernhard renounced any influence in Westphalia and Engern, he claimed sovereignty over the counties of Holstein , Ratzeburg , Schwerin , Lüchow and Dannebergwithout being able to assert itself completely. The growing influence of the WELFEN and the inconsistent attitude of the emperor caused him additional difficulties . In 1197 he was made a candidate for throne under the leadership of Archbishop Adolf of Cologne , but refused and remained loyal to PHILIPP VON SCHWABEN . Only after his death did he join the OTTO IV party . - The focus of his possessions was in the askanian countries. After his death, the eldest son Heinrich received the Askan possessions between the Harz and Middle Elbe ( Anhalt line ), the younger Albrecht Ibecame Duke of Saxony ( Wittenberger Lineage ).

NDB II, 112f. - BWbDG (1st ed.), 61f .; (2nd ed.), 243f. - H. Loreck, BI, the Askanier, Hzg. V. Saxony, Zs. Des Harz-Vereins 26, 1893, 207-301 - H. Wäschke, Anhalt. Business I, 1912, 150-182.

Based on sourced vs. non-sourced documentation, I believe the Geni connection is incorrect and the mother of Henry I should be Bernard III's wife Judith.

4/25/2020 at 9:17 PM

Sorry, I shouldn't have put the Geni like as the subject, my bad.

Heinrich I von Anhalt-Zerbst, Count of Anhalt

Private User
4/26/2020 at 4:13 AM

Agree. It should be easy for a curator to change it, they are already all connected. Just make Brigitte childless and rename her to "Jutta af Danmark". If no one provide sources for her connection, then remove her.

Private User
4/26/2020 at 9:19 PM

This is the best source I have been told: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ANHALT.htm#_Toc359919196

HEINRICH von Ballenstedt, son of BERNHARD von Ballenstedt Duke of Saxony, Graf von Aschersleben und Anhalt & his wife Judyta of Poland ([1170]-[8 May 1251/17 May 1252], bur Ballenstedt). The Cronica Principum Saxonie names (in order) "Albertum ducem Saxonie et Henricum comitem de Anahalt et Magonem" as sons of "Bernardus dux Saxonie" & his wife[11]. He succeeded his father in 1212 as HEINRICH I "der Fette" Graf von Anhalt, Graf von Askarie, Graf von Aschersleben, the title Duke of Saxony passing to his younger brother. Vogt of Kloster Nienburg until 1220. "…Heinricus dux de Anhalt…" witnessed the charter dated 21 Feb 1219 under which Emperor Friedrich II confirmed an exchange of property involving Kloster Eberbach[12]. "…Heinricus comes de Anehalt, Albertus frater eius dux de Berneburch, filii ducis Bernhardi…" witnessed the charter dated [22/27] Jul [1220] under which Emperor Friedrich II granted protection to Kloster Lausnitz[13]. He was appointed tutor for Johann I and Otto III joint Markgrafen von Brandenburg in 1220, after the death of their father Markgraf Albrecht II: "Mechtildis…marchionissa Brandenburgensis, Johannes et Otto filii eius" purchased territories from the archbishop of Magdeburg, with the consent of "Henricus comes Ascharie, qui tutelam prefatorum nepotum nostrorum gerimus", by charter dated 20 Sep 1221[14]. "Heynricus comes in Aschersleve" freed the church of Zernitz from the church at Bernburg by charter dated [Jan/Sep] 1228[15]. "Henricus…comes Ascharie" confirmed property of Kloster Nienburg, with the consent of "filiis nostris, Henrico…et Bernardo", by charter dated 1240[16]. The date of his death is set by the charter dated 17 May 1252 under which "Bernardus et Sifridus…comites Ascharie et principes de Anehalt…Hermannus Halberstadensis et Magnus Lubucensis prepositi, fratres eorundem" confirmed the donation by "patris nostri bone memorie" to Coswig[17 Codex Diplomaticus Anhaltinus, Teil II, 196, p. 151.].

Please contact managers before changing these old profiles, preferably someone who understands the language and naming. As many different languages have been merged to create these profiles. briGette could be Jutte for example, maybe not, but possible.

4/26/2020 at 9:33 PM

Private User

Thanks, I don't even contact profile managers on profiles this old because they're usually just regular members like me but often do have an assigned curator, who would normally be the person I'd hope would assist. In any case, when they're this old, I always bring them into discussion curator input because they often have resources for validation that aren't available to me and other regular members and normally more experienced members like yourself will weigh in, which always helps.

What you shared is more validation that Jutte / Judith / Judyta was his mother. Like you, I feel sure Brigette isn't a variation of that name.

Private User
4/26/2020 at 10:38 PM

Some do not think Finholbek is a good source, but in this case he too sais Judith of Poland.

Brigette was added last year it seems Heinrich I von Anhalt-Zerbst, Count of Anhalt

I am not weighing in, I was alerted as this is my 24th great grandfather on the tree :)

Private User
4/26/2020 at 11:25 PM

Maybe this is her mother, the curator is on hiatus, but I think he may be able to look at this when he returns. Judyta Mieszkówna

Private User
4/26/2020 at 11:27 PM

*HIS :)

Private User
4/27/2020 at 1:17 AM

Alex Moes WDYT?

4/27/2020 at 8:08 AM

That's what everything indicates.

4/27/2020 at 3:53 PM

Shaz, from your quote above:
" The Cronica Principum Saxonie names (in order) "Albertum ducem Saxonie et Henricum comitem de Anahalt et Magonem" as sons of "Bernardus dux Saxonie" & his wife[11]."
That's as good as you're likely going to get as evidence.

So then the question becomes "who was the wife of Bernie?"
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAXONY.htm#Bernharddied1212B says:
The Chronicon Polono-Silesiacum refers to, but does not name, the daughters of Mieszko III, naming (second in the list) "dux Saxonie" as his son-in-law[576]. A 13th century genealogy refers to the wife of "Berenhardum [filius Albertus de Hanhalde marchio]" as "ducis Polonie filiam"[577]. The Cronica Principum Saxonie names "Iuttam filiam Mesechonis ducis Polonie" as wife of "Bernardus dux Saxonie"[578].

So my Latin is a little rusty but I think "Iuttam filiam Mesechonis ducis Polonie" could read as Jutta daughter of Mieszko.

4/27/2020 at 4:00 PM

Long story short, it seems to me like the evidence is that Count Bernard of Anhalt, Duke of Saxony only had one wife so the problem is that on Geni he has 3. Why does Wiki have 3 is not really a question I feel like looking into but if i was to the first thing i'd check is the discussion tab of the wiki page.

The extra two wives can't just be deleted, they need to be disconnected and reconnected (if appropriate) to the correct husbands. This needs to be done keeping an eye on whether their current children should stay with Bernie or go with the mother.

I'd be doing some more reading before making any changes.

Private User
4/27/2020 at 4:23 PM

Thanks Alex Moes Hero as usual :)

OK, I have made the one simple change of mother for him, made MP and locked relationships.

I do believe with these older profiles once we are sure, we should lock their position on the tree. Then instead of proving some change wrong, we need to prove to change.

If anyone dis agrees, please say and "I am not weighing in" LOL

4/27/2020 at 8:21 PM

Alex Moes and Private User, thank you both very much! :)

Private User
4/27/2020 at 8:31 PM

Debbie Gambrell you are most welcome :)

4/27/2020 at 10:58 PM

My initial response was pre-coffee.
On further reflection it would pay to find Medlands entries for the other two wives, if they exist, in an attempt to puzzle out why Wikipedia contributors differ from Crawley.

I noticed that the English and German wikipedia pages look like straight translations of each other, which is not as common as you might think. Interesting but I'm not sure of the significance (if any)

Private User
4/27/2020 at 11:22 PM

Alex Moes >>"On further reflection it would pay to find Medlands entries for the other two wives, if they exist"

Yes, agree :) I think that is the next move. As Father is curated I thought to wait till he is back from Hiatus.

Debbie Gambrell appreciate your work, perhaps if you find more info you could continue to share :)

4/27/2020 at 11:35 PM

Oh, I will. This is a direct line for me and even if it weren't, bad connections through everyone's relationships off. So I always make an effort to do what I can toward sorting things out. I'm just not as experienced as others of you are, but learning all the time.

Private User
4/28/2020 at 12:07 AM

Debbie Gambrell If you want anything "Mechanical" done, message me, I am not that experienced in this part of the tree, I tend to dwell in the 17-1800'ds as life began (for my family) in Australia then :)

You certainly got this one, and if I were more organised, I am sure I have a copy somewhere of how this part of the tree used to be.

I did change another previously, my ancestor was desc, from:

Friedrich I von Steinberg, Erbherr auf Brüggen and Elisabeth von Spiegel zu Peckelsheim

But I changed it to the other wife: Hedwig von Steinberg

Do you think you could please check that for me? Fresh eyes and all. I changed it because of respect for the work of the late Leo van de Pas https://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00413835&tree=LEO

You may find his site useful too :)

4/28/2020 at 12:43 AM

Private User

I don't know those lines at all, but a link in Friedrich I von Steinberg's Geni profile took me to a site about the Steinbergs and it has this listing:

Friedrich I von Steinberg (* 1619, † 1679); Erbherr auf Brüggen ⚭ 1. 1645 Elisabeth von Spiegel (1620–1660 adH Peckelsheim )

I'm not familiar with Leo van de Pas but I don't see any references on that site whereas this link where the above excerpt is from does have references:


That said, on that same site, a bit below the first marriage is listed: Friedrich I. von Steinberg ⚭ 2. 1664 Hedwig von Wiedensee.

I'm 'assuming' that @2 means his second wife. He had children with both wives, so the connection(s) would be based on which wife was the mother of any particular child of Friedrich I.

Private User
4/28/2020 at 1:03 AM

Yes Wikipedia has this:

Friedrich I. von Steinberg ⚭ 2. 1664 Hedwig von Wiedensee
Dorothea Elisabeth von Steinberg († 1731) ⚭ Ernst Friedrich Freiherr von Spörcken (* 1665; † 1726; Sohn von Werner Hermann von Spörcken und Anna Eleonore von Lenthe); Erbherr auf Langlingen, Landschaftsdirektor zu Lüneburg, 1717 Freiherr
Sophie Wilhelmine Freiin von Spörcken
August Ludwig Freiherr von Spörcken († 1752); Wirklicher Geheimer Rat und Oberhofmarschall zu Wolfenbüttel; ⚭ Catharina von Arnswald 1724

Schloss Brüggen
Friedrich II. von Steinberg (* 1659; † 1716); Oberhofmarschall und Inhaber weiterer hoher Ämter am Hofe des Anton Ulrich (Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel); Er ließ 1693 das Schloss Brüggen nach einem Entwurf von Johann Balthasar Lauterbach durch den späteren herzoglichen Landbaumeister Hermann Korb errichten; ⚭ Gertrud von Grapendorff (möglicherweise aus der Familie von Grappendorf, die ihren Stammsitz auf einem Burgmannshof in Lübbecke hatten und für lange Zeit Besitzer von Grappenstein waren).

I will check but maybe lock that relationship in too. I lost some great ancestors that day, but, better correct - ALWAYS -

I also noted Leo did not have any references, but he is highly esteemed and introduced to me by Erica prior to his death, he sent me a list of Plantagenet Australians :) I will get back to checking the desc. of Edward III soon, my son bought me Exeter and all I need now is Essex to have the set :D

4/28/2020 at 1:22 AM

Well, I have to do the English translation. lol You're doing a lot better than I can do if you can read all that without translation!

I totally agree, correct connections are essential, even if it cuts people we'd love to have in our family tree. So, again, I thank you so much for your assistance with this.

4/28/2020 at 4:20 AM

I've only skimmed the last few posts but the name Leo van de Pas jumped out at me, sadly I believe the gentleman is deceased but in life he had a very highly regarded reputation. Though for the life of me I cannot remember the name of his website.

4/29/2020 at 12:48 AM

https://www.genealogics.org/ (Google Leo van de Pas)

If Leo didn’t know it, he didn’t accept into his database, and every entry has a citation for underlying data.

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