Baron Joshua von Zeitlin - Possibly one more Joshua's son?

Started by Arcady Litvin on Wednesday, June 24, 2020
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In the site FamilySearch.org appears the Tree of Joshua Zeitlin (1742 – 1822) (See https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LZ2F-56W).
In the Tree there included only one descendant of Joshua Zeitlin - Aaron Zeitlin with its descendants' sub-tree.
Clear that there the information there is at least missing.
The question is if probably also here (in geni.com) some information is missing?
Perhaps there was more than four Joshua's children?

Sorry, it seems that in the tree appeared in FamilySearch.org is just missing one level.
Aaron Zeitlin (with all his sub-tree) appeared there as a Joshua's son is almost identical to Aaron Zeitlin appeared here (in geni.com) as a son of Joshua's son Moshe Zeitlin.

To make less confusion please use the original names Yehoiche (Yehoshua ) Zeitlis was born 1743 and his grandson Joshua Zeitlin was born 1823. What David Zeitlin added to Geni was my doubt that Joshua was a grandson even though it is written in one of his descendants Photo albums. Joshua son of Moshe Aron son of Yehoshua Zeitlin. You know of cause that in Russia it is polite to call a person together with his fathers name.
I had my doubts if Aron Moshe was a double name or meant Aharon son of Moshe. My doubt was also due to the 80 years between their births. Which I think was long for only 3 generations back then, when knowing how early the religious families married of their children.
Both Yehoiche and Joshua left their families for many years due to work in other regions of Russia. Solomon grew up with his maternal grandparents due to the fathers long work trips that stretched over years. So that is why there were so few children.
It is possible if Yehoiche got Moshe at the age of 45 and he got Joshua at the age of 35, to only have 3 generation on 80 years . But Moshe lived only a short life and didn't reach even 30. If it is the correct Moshe we found? Yehoiche had 10 siblings so there could have been 10 other Moshe Zetlins in the close family!
I added the Zeitlin tree to Geni in 2006 and then erased it again after a person added 44000 Zaks to my tree and refused to remove them. I only add people with documents and can not accept names that have no documented sources. David Zeitlin and I worked together for 8 years until he sadly passed away at a much to young age. He added his family although we had no documents to prove that they were related . We know our Zeitlins knew each other 140 years ago, but not if they were related 220 years ago. Peter Trefilov is an excellent researcher and have researched noble families for years and he works with documents! He added doubles of Feigel and Gregory to my tree that needs to be merged! Yigal Burstein added another unknown daughter married to a Shaul? There is an old claim that Yehoiche married twice and "had" 4 children. But it is also written that the second wife brought 2 daughters into the marriage. It was something I and David Zeitlin found information about ,but without a marriage certificate it is doubtful that there was a second marriage.Therefor I refused to add her. She could have been a Housekeeper! Yehoishes daughter Feigel did not marry someone named Shaul and didnt have a daughter married to a Horowitz . I have seen that old Horowitz tree that claims it and also know that Feigel had only two children and her daughter Miriam was not married to a Horowitz! Feigel died early but her husband is said to have have converted both her and the children and him self . He remarried after her death and got I think 8 children with the second wife. The second wife was of Noble decent. I don't have the research with me on this computer, so I am only telling what I remember from David Zeitlin and my old research and discussions. Gregory Peretz was named Zvi Hirsh. David and I worked on the idea that Feigel Sarah Peretz's conversion wasn't true and only a rumor spread from evil gossip. And that Abraham might have converted after her death and not earlier so he could get the government position. But we could not oversee the other rumor that some of the Zeitlins belonged to the Shabtai Zvi fractions of Jacob Frank , since they had married into the Mittlere rebbes family. So that could have been the reason for evil rumors. The fact that Gregory wasn't born in Russia points to some truth in that claim . But it is a sensitive subject! And until proven it is just rumors. Some old Hebrew books tell that Miriam lived a Jewish observant life even though converted. Gregory Peretz was married to a Pupke girl if I remember correct. She was the daughter of his Yeshive teacher. He died somewhere in Siberia poor and sick! That is all for now!
Greetings Nehirah

Do you know any additional information abput Shabtai/Shepshel son of Aaron Zeitlin (1816-1989).
He is the patriarch of prominent branch of TZeitlin family.

In the tree there is this or another Shabtai, brother of Yehoshua Tzeitlin of Moscow (born in 1823).
But there are no additional information to merge them.

Hi, Nehirah, Thanks a lot for your detailed response!
1. I can see according to family trees in Geni.com and in MyHeritage.com that Aaron (Ben Moshe!) was indeed a son of Yehoiche's son Moshe - i.e grandson of Yehoiche.
2. I wonder if mentioned by you 44000 Zacks added to the tree - was perhaps from the collection of Prof. George Sackheim? (I heared of his collection of about 60000 Zacks!)
3. David Zeitlin (ZA"L) you mentioned was from Brookline NYC?
4. I have found in MyHeritage.com a family tree managed by Dov Zeitlin (from Israel) that contain even my father! I am now trying to contact him.
5. Yehoiche's daughter Sarah Feiga Peretz (1768-1813) had a son Gregory (1788-1855), and two daughters Miriam and Tsirl. So I had found in several sources.
6. In several sources i had also read that Abraham Peretz did the conversion (to Lutheranism) only after death of his first wife Feigel Sarah in 1813 and then remarried to Caroline De Lombor.
7. I found that Yehoiche Zeitlin's 1742-1822 Great-Great grandson Solomon 1842-1896 (=> Moshe 1788-1813 => Aaron => Joshua 1823-1888 => Solomon 1842-1896)
was married to your gg grandfathers (Leib Zack 1829-1888) sister Caecilie (Sack) Zeitlin 1843-1912 <=> Shlomo Solomon Chaim Zvi Zeitlin 1842-1896. Is it right?
8. I am GGGGG-grandson of Yehoiche Zeitlis 1742-1822:
Arcady Litvin => Semen Litvin => Joheved Litvin (Zeitlin) => Jankiv-Leib Zeitlin => Moshe-Shlomo Zeitlin 1825-1870 => Girsh Zeitlin 1800-1865 => Moshe Zeitlin 1788-1813 => Yehoiche Zeitlin 1742-1822.
Best Regards, Arcady

Hi, Mr. Pimenov!
Unfortunately I have no additional information about Sabbatai Haim Zeitlin. You may try to ask the tree managers (who had added and updated this person in the tree).
How amusing - one of my relatives is now also teaching Math in SPbGU!
Good Luck and Best Regards, Arcady

Hi Nehira and all:
Since my name is mentioned here, I have to reply. But I was following this discussion.
1) I never disconnected from Sergei Szmerek Zeitlin. I never saw this profile before. Checking it now, Sergei is connected to my father side of the family, and I now follow his profile. This is a different side of my tree.
2) Konstantin and I share a lot of information.
3) Konstantin obviously made a typing mistake in the year 1989. Surely he meant 1889.
4) To the best of my knowledge the Shabtaut movement was not very active or important in the 19th century. The great effect on Judaism was in the 17-18 centuries. Wikipedia tells me that the current Shabtaut people are not considered Jews.

Dear Nehirah.
Yes I remember our previous communications, and who can forget the unusual name Nehirah.

Listen dear, In my part of the tree of Chaim Shabbatei Tseitlin - not all is finalized.
This was a hard profile to work on.
Now i try to let others do much of the research.

I checked again the revisions of Sergei's profile: in June 2017 2 profiles were merged. I could not see separately, or at all, the revisions there. So perhaps I was added then by GENI to one profile, and taken off it, later. The strange thing is that usually REVISIONS enable you to see the exact changes.

Yes we do have Pines connected to "my" Tseitlins.

Was interesting to read your additional Shabtaut research. Personally it is fine for me - if people convert to any religion and or belief, they need to, or want to.
Many Jewish Frum families keep their own trees, and do not include in it personalities that would show them in a bad light. Often for good Shiduch reasons.

Anyway dear Nehirah - hope all the matters will be solved. Thanks again.

I will keep following this interesting discussion.

Take care all of you. Much health.
Bella

These days I work on research of other relatives.

About

Dear Nehirah!
a. So you are the same Pheya from my big brother Naum's "tales"?! I am so glad and impressed!
Sad to say that my beloved big brother Naum was dead of cancer in 2011 in USA in age 62...
Naum told me in 2007 that you had exchanged letters with him. And also with our cousin nephew Vladimir (living in Israel, like me).
I also visited in 2004 the Zeitlin descendant in Nathanya - his wife was making a big family tree.
b. Your touching to Shabtay - Frankists story - caused me to do a history homework (mostly by Wikipedia).
c. I like your comparison with different sunglasses - this is the reliable way to approach to the true.
d. How it happened you are stuck in Spain? Because of COVID-19? Keep healthy and be careful also!
In which years did you live in Israel? Your son still live there?
Your oldest son read 400 old Hebrew books in the Jerusalem Library?! Wow! It was hard work!
What happened with your name Pheya? And if I may - What mean the name Nehira Kadosh? (I'm sure you know what it mean in Hebrew!)
e. I am 68 now and had retired one year ago. We came to Israel from St. Petersburg in 1990 - almost 30 years ago.
So my native language is Russian, Hebrew is second, but my English still needs to be improved (but I'm trying!) and a bit Spanish.

1. I had started my family tree with my brother Naum in 1977 after two or three visits of our Moscow uncle Girsh Litvin (1898-1979).
He had an excellent memory and tell many very interesting family stories! He began from Joshua Zeitlin (1742-1822). Then we used to write everything on paper.
After uncle Girsh was gone we was continuing to gather the information by interviewing all our older living family members.
Now I want to transfer all our handwritten family tree information from papers into internet and possibly also broaden and expand it.
In this stage I also make this 'sin': I search, analyze as much as possilble and copy relatives from other trees.
And yes - I cannot be sure where the information from several conflicting or inconsistent sources is closer to the truth.
The bigger number of places where a fact has appeared cannot be a reliable sign of its greater truthfulness.
It bothers me but does not always stop me...
2. My brother Naum has shared with me part of your correspondence from 2007 - so I knew about 60000 Zacks of Proff George Sackheim that you had written.
3. I asked if David Zeitlin ZA"L was from Brooklyn in order not to confuse him with Dov Zeitlin from Israel (Dov is also a sweet name for David and both are Zeitlins).
4. If I am not mistaken, Dov Zeitlin from Israel has GG-father Hirsch who was a brother of my GG-father Jankiv-Leib - both were GGG-sons of Joshua (1742-1822).
Their tree is connected to your tree in the same way as my tree - through your GGG-father Leib Zack (1829-1888) and his sister Caecilie Zeitlin (Sack) 1843-1912 who
married Solomon Zeitlin (1842-1896) - GGG-son of Joshua Zeitlin 1742-1822.
In his tree the ancestors reached (and further) the MAHARAL! I'm not sure how reliable everything is there...
In addition, there is another Dov Zeitlin from the UK with his tree...
5. I tried again to find sources about the daughters of Sarah Feiga Peretz (1768-1813), and found only one source: http://www.jewage.org/wiki/en/Profile:P2102903836
This publication was posted by the user Kirill Vasserman. Perhaps it was a mistake to accept the double name Miriam Tsirel as the names of two daughters!
6. I saw that the second wife of Abraham Peretz is referred differently as Somber (or Sombr) or Lombor. At JewAge it was De Lombor. Another mistake?...
7. I feel that family research is much more serious and harder than I thought, because the Internet has a lot of unverified and conflicting information.
8. Moshe-Shlomo (1825-1870) is indicated on my tree as the grandson of Moshe (1788-1813), son of Joshua (1742-1822) based on an oral story (circa 1977) of my uncle Grisha (1898-1979).
Good health and all the best,
Arcady

Hello Arcady,
I am from Moscow originally and my great-grandfather's mother's name was Sora Berkova Zeitlin. He had said that her father's name was Dov Ber Zeitlin and she was a descendant of Joshua Zeitlin. They lived in Shklow and Mogilev, and his surname was Charny (or Tscharny or Shachor)
Pavel

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