Henry II "Curtmantle", king of England - Henry II "Curtmantle", King of England

Started by Dona Lorine Kimmons, Sr. on Wednesday, June 24, 2020
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6/24/2020 at 12:05 PM

King Henry II is my 23rd great-grandfather, the Master Profile shows this as of May 29-2020, the Master Profile has been changed and no longer shows my proper blood relationship, he is my direct ancestor, and my 23rd great-grandfather. Erica Howtan was the Curator for this Master Profile, which showed My Cornwell family as my blood relationship correctly, not my Rivers family, which now shows me as a distant cousin, this is not correct, and I have printed out the correct one many times before, and I do not know wo changed this to show him as distant cousin and not my 23rd great-grandfather, as shown on May 29, 2020 and before that. My Williams/Lane/Cornwell family used to show as my proper blood relationship, and showed my 23rd great-grandfather was King Henry II, can someone please correct this profile as i was before someone change it. It was a Master Profile, and now it is wrong showing my inpropper blood relationship. Please correct this back as it was before on May 29, 2020 and before that date.

Sincerely,
Dona Lorine Floyd Kimmons

6/24/2020 at 12:46 PM

Hmm. This is very interesting. I am not sure what is going on here. I don't think that anything has been changed in the tree, so maybe it was a glitch in the Geni software. A way to fix this is to "walk" down through your connection and calculate the relationship at each profile. I calculated your relationship to John I, son of Henry II, and then refreshed your connection to Henry II and that seemed to have fixed it from my end. Does it work for you?

https://photos.geni.com/p13/2d/5f/20/f2/534448568dd3ab8b/kimmons_to...

6/24/2020 at 1:09 PM

By the way, as I was looking through your connection to Henry II: https://photos.geni.com/p13/2d/5f/20/f2/534448568dd3ab8b/kimmons_to... I think I have identified a small issue in the path as it currently stands. Your connection into the British/Scottish nobility goes by way of Catherine Ross, wife of James Ross, 4th Lord Ross of Halkhead through her son Peter Ross.

This looks problematic to me because Catharine Mackenzie, daughter of Kenneth Mackenzie, 10th of Kintail and Elizabeth Stewart married Alexander Ross, 9th Lord of Balnagowan, not James Ross. See http://www.thepeerage.com/p1794.htm#i17934 and https://books.google.com/books?id=jX4DAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA10&....

Also, James Ross, 4th Lord Ross: James, Lord Ross of Hawkhead married Jean Sempill, not Catherine Mackenzie, and does not seem to have had a son named Peter. See The Scots Peerage, Volume VII by Sir James Balfour Paul, page 254. https://www.electricscotland.com/books/pdf/scots_peerage.htm

Do you know anything about this connection? Do you have any sources for this segment of your connection to Henry II?

Sincerely,
Tamas Caldwell-Gilbert

6/24/2020 at 1:09 PM

The profiles change here quite a bit. Folks merge other profiles, add relatives, etc (without checking that there may already be a profile for them)....it happens to me all the time.

6/25/2020 at 5:20 AM

To Tamas Gilbert::
The profile is almost correct, but not quite, and thank you for helping me on this. The original profile forr King Henry II does not contain the name Ross. Where you have put the name Obediah Cornwell, the original name was Mary Ann Cornwell, then Rhoda Lane, then Rhoda Nicholson, then Nathan Whitehead, then Isabella Whitehead, then Arthur Purcell, then Samuel Pearsall, then Thomas Pearsall, then Edmund Pearsall, then Richard Pearsall, then Catherine Harcourt, then Thomas Harcourt, Esq., then John Harcourt, Esq. of Ranton, then Sir Thomas Harcourt, Kt., then Maud de Gray, then Sir John de Grey, Jr. 2nd Baron Grey of Rotherfield, then Lady Margaret de Grey (de Oddingseles), then Ela de Longespee, then Ida "secunda" de Longspee, then William Longspee, 3rd Earl of Salisury, then Henry II "Curtmantle", King of England.

This is what is shown on my copy of Henry II, on May 29, 2020. There is no Ross in this one. I did not create any of these profiles, nor do I know who Ross is, these profiles were already on GENI as shown on May 29, 2020. And I did not mere any profiles, these were already created on GENI as shown on May 29, 2020.

Thank you for helping me,
Dona Floyd Kimmons

6/25/2020 at 5:24 AM

Sorry for the spelling error, the word was merge, not mere,

6/25/2020 at 6:05 AM

To Tamas Gilbert:
It looks like the error is on the profile of Lacy Elizabeth "Isabel"Stewart, whos lists a child Catherine Ross, this is not my profile.
Sincerely,
Dona Floyd Kimmons

6/27/2020 at 5:31 AM

To Tamas Caldwell-Gilbert:
You helped me on my rela5tionship to King Henry II "Curtmandle by refreshing it. How do you refresh a profile as you did, which had it corrected June 27. Now someone has gone and changed it back to the wrong blood relationship, since you helped me fix it on June 27th by refreshing it, which corrected it, same with Eleanor d'Aquitaine and John 1 "Lacklland", can you please get these corrected again, as you did 2 days ago, showing them as my 23rd greag-grandparents, not my 3rd cousin 21 times removed, now my 24th great-grandmother as it is now showing again wrong.
Sincerely,
Dona Floyd Kimmons

6/27/2020 at 2:46 PM

Tamás Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert, This seems to be a commopn problem with old pedigrees, and the fact that SOME people create new profiles for their ancestors without even checking first to see if their ancestor is already in Geni. Other people "create new lines" to "prove their connection" to royalty. I would suggest that once the information in the profile for [Henry II "Curtmantle", king of England] gets corrected (again) that the information within the profile gets LOCKED so as to prevent any further changes or errors being created. Thank you.

Jathan Pfeifle
(direct descendant of Henry II "Curtmantle", king of England via multiple paths)

*path II (through my mother's mother-my 23rd great grandfather):
https://geni.com/5BXQN

*Path II (to/through the father of my mother's mother --his 20th great grandfather )
https://geni.com/Qx8Wh

*Path III: To my mother's father (his 21st great grandfather)
https://geni.com/RQN44

*Path IV: To my father-his 24th great grandfather (through his mother's mother)
https://geni.com/bw1td
===============

*Dona is also connected to me through several routes. here is one path
https://geni.com/4ghhw

6/28/2020 at 4:27 AM

Tamas Finn Caldwell-Gilbert:

, Jathan Pfeifle had these profiles corrected yesterday, showing Henry II as my 23rd great-gradfather, now correct. Again, he corrected Eleanor of Aquitaine, also my 23rd great-grandmother, which now shows her as my 24th great0-grandmother. Henry II's son, John Lackland also shows him now as my 23rd great=grandfather, whicnagein is wrong, Both can't be my 23rd greaat-grrandfather, only Henry II is my 23rd great=grandfather. Eleanor d'Aquitaine married also Louis VII le Jeune, rou de France, who was my 24th great-grandfather shown in February 2020 and on May 29, 2020, now he is wrong too, showing him as my 3rd cousin 27 timese removed, again wrong. He is my 24th great-grandfather, and that was the correct profile for him, now changed again. Please help.
Sincerely,
Dona Floyd Kimmons

Private User
6/28/2020 at 7:27 AM

You are probably related to him several different ways, and the Geni relationship calculator is finding one that maybe you didn't know about. Changing the *profile* will have no effect on the *path* - you have to find out where *that* changed, and whether *that* change was valid or not.

6/28/2020 at 12:23 PM

Tamas Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert:
WE were working on King II, and you followed his son, John (Lacland) and corrected the path according to his son, same path as King Henry II, which is now correct, only someone changed his so again to Echols, tihis is not correct, as Jathan explained above. Now it shows his son, King John (Lackland) of England with the Echols genealogy, and claims he is also my 23rd great - grandfather, which he is not, he is my 22nd great-grandftaher. and Jathan corected Eleanor d'Aquitaine, which showed yesterday, and it was corrected again yesterday by Jathan, which showed her as my 23rd great-grandmother, which is correct, now Eleanor d"Aquitaine is showing as my 24th great-grandmother, which she is not, and showing the same wrong Echold genealogy. I have printed out these genealogies since February, 2020, and again May 29, 2020, and they were all correct. Also, Eleanor's husband, Louis VII is my 24h great-grandfather, not my 3rd cousin 27 times removed with the same wrong genealogy. Can you please correct these profiles again for me.
Thank you,
Sincerely,
Dona Floyd Kimmons

6/28/2020 at 1:03 PM

Dona Lorine Kimmons, Sr. -- because the Geni relationship calculator shows you the shortest route -- not necessarily the most direct -- it's a highly interesting tool, but it isn't the best way to find out if any given line you are thinking of is on Geni. For all of those medieval profiles, you would naturally be related in many different ways. The relationship calculator will not be showing them all.

If, on your own tree, you walk the line on up, checking to see what profiles are there, you can see if your line is actually in Geni.

If there is a break in the line as you have yours, please let us know the profile that is disconnected.

That is the only way to correct the lines, if they are indeed disconnected.

6/28/2020 at 2:00 PM

To Anne Brannen:
Thank you, Anne, the profiles I am referring to have been right since February 20, 2020, and May 29, 2020, and Henry II "Curtmantle, is now correct. When I first starting working on this, Tamas Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert did what you said on his son, King John "Lackland, she walked the line on my tree and the tree was then corrected. Then, yesterday, you can see the message from Jathan Pfeifle to her, and he also correct Henry II and Eleanor d'Aquitaine yesterday back to the Cornwell lines, not the Echols lines. All trees were corrected for a long time as I printed all of them out on those dates. Then I checked my Ancestry tree, and found a source of Cornwall Line Visitation of Shropshire 1623, which lists all of the Cornwall visitations. All that had to e done, and was done by both Tamas and Jathan was refresh these profiles and they were corrected back to what they originally were. If you could read what Jathan Pfeifle wrote on Henry II to Tamas, and see his lines, 4 of them, and he and her corrected mine yesterday by just refreshing them. Now, today, it shows Henry II, is correct, my 23rd great-grandfather, and his wife, Eleanor d'Aquitaine, should be my 23rd great-grandmother, but now is shown my 24th great-grandmother, and the sone, King John now shows him as my 23rd great-grandfather too, which is wrong, as Tomas even followed his line. Eleanor d'Aquitaine was married to Louis VII le Jeune, roi de France, who was shown as my 24th great-grandfather on those former profiles, and now shows him as a 3rd cousin 22 times removed. I did notice the Whithead name in my Henry II profile, and I think another Curator, Cynthia Ann Hicks, who is on my Guest Book, the Whiteheads are in her tree, I think.
But all that has to be done is to refresh these profiles as Tamas and Jathan did yesterday, and they were corrected yesterday, now today they are wrong again. As I said, Tamas already walked the line on my tree of Henry II's son, King John on my tree.
I wrote a book on my family tree, including Royal geneallogies, as well as read Plantagenet Ancestry, of which my Cornwalls, Plantagenets, and my Bush/Pierce families are in the book "Plantagenet Ancestry". When I wrote my book in 1974, my 83 year old relative gave me all of her papers in her trunk, and her ancestors before her had worked many years on our Royal genealogies. As I am in the DAR for Elijah Cornwell/Cornwall, they proved their heritage to belong to Americans of Royal Descent, Colonial Dames, Dames of Magna Carta, DAR, way back before I came along, they were from North and South Carolina and Virginia and Texas
I already have been DNA matched to Cornwell/Cornwall/Plantagenet in FTdna and mtDNA.. All I am trying to do is restore these as they always were since February, 2020 and before that and were correct as I printed them out. And they were corect yesterday, but today were wrong again. If you could help me, I would really appreciate it.
I did notice something incorrect in these wrong new trees they put on here, they have John Echols, and Mary Cave?. I tried to correct that profile and the manager told me i could not correct it, because I couldn't prove her father, although I didn't create that profile in the first place, but it is in these new wrong Royal genealogies.
I am sorry if I made spelling errors, my eyes are not too good, bbu I would appreciate any help, thank you so much.
Sincerely,
Dona Floyd Kimmons

6/28/2020 at 8:35 PM

Dona Lorine Kimmons, Sr. — it is just true that the relationship paths as shown in the relationship bar change from time to time, for profiles so far back in time. If you can give a link to a profile you know to have been disconnected, that will help.

I just refreshed your path to,Henry II and to Eleanor of direct ancestor to you, which means either that there is a new “shortest route” or that something has gotten disconnected or changed. You would need to find the place where there had been changes made, and let us know.

Here is a helpful page on the relationship calculator — https://www.geni.com/projects/Working-with-Relationships/17570

I see that the curator’s note on John Echols says that his parents are unproven. If you have reliable evidence as to parents, that will be wonderful! Unsourced web trees won’t count, but sourced ones may give some evidence.

6/29/2020 at 5:15 AM

Hi, Anne Brannen:
I am sorry this is taking me so long, but I am doing as you said, following the lines in the trees, to see the problem. I can only work on one at a time.First, Henry II "Curtmantle" is correct, 2) John 1 "Lackland", his son. The profiles are correct, the one that says he is my 22nd great-grandfather, follows the line of my 2nd great-grandmother, Adeline Eluisa Cornwell, and on the profile that states he is my 22nd great-grandfather, GENI followed the line of her father, Obadiah Cornwell, which is correct. And on the profile that says he is my 23rd great-uncle, GENI followed the line of her mother, Mary Ann (Lane) Cornwell. Both of them are correct. Hernry II, "Curtmantle", King of England, followed the line of Adeline Eluise Cornwell's mother, Mary Ann (Lane Cornwell. I do not know how to correct this to read he is my 22nd great-grandfather, and not my 22 great-uncle, but the profiles are all corect, it just that one used the mother and the other used the father. That is on profiles of Henry II and his son, King John "Lackland" Sorry this is taking time to do, but that is on those two profiles, they are both right, the father and mother of my 2nd great-grandmother Adeline Eluisa Cornwell is correct. I will continue to work slow on each line and profile, but those are two I finished for now. Weill answer more after I check them, thank you for your patience with me, this is taking time to walk these lines.

Sincerely,
Dona Floyd Kimmons

6/29/2020 at 5:42 AM

Hi, Anne Brannen:
On Eleanor d'Aquitaine, same problem. On my May 29, 2020 copy of Eleanor d'Aquitaine, which shows her as my 23rd great-grandmother, this profile shows Peter John Dennis Cornwell, and his mother, Ann Cornwell, which is correct. That is his mother. On the new profile, which shows Eleanor d'Aquitaine as my 3rd cousin 25 times removed, the profile of Mary Ann Cornwell is used again on her profile. The profiles are all correct, it just showing differant relationships, which is not correct. The one on May 29, 2020 which shows her as my 23rd great-grandmother is correct, which shows Ann Cornwell, mother of Peter John Dennis Cornwell. I have these printed out correctly all the way back to February, 2020, and just noticed this change recently. The profiles are not wrong, it just the relationships are wrong. I will do as you said and study your link on relationships, thank you for your help, because I do not know how to fix this. Before, it showed Louis VII le Jeune, as my 24th great-grandfather, which was correct, and was that way since February, 2020, now he has changed to. As I said, I willl study you link you gave me, thank you for helping me, I really apppreciate this help. I ued to have a collaborator, Mr. Davidd Kaletta, a former Curator who always helped me before and fixed these things for me, but I can't get him now.

Sincerely,
Dona Floyd Kimmons

Private User
6/29/2020 at 7:27 AM

There's one other thing to consider. Every so often the relationship calculator goes bonkers for no known reason. Usually it settles down again within a few days, but if it doesn't, you can try "walking the path" as described (do this from within profiles, not in tree view) and see if that helps.

6/29/2020 at 8:55 AM

Dona Lorine Kimmons, Sr. -- the bottom line here is that what the relationship calculator shows you is not the important thing. The important thing is whether or not the connections are correct.

I myself don't pay attention to the relationship calculator, except when I am working on something specific to it. It is not the arbiter of the relationships. It is just a piece of software that says some stuff.

I think it's worthwhile checking your lines, but it's not worth your time trying to make the relationship calculator behave.

what you are telling me above, as far as I can tell, is that all of the connections you have checked are correct.

Yay!

that's it. That's all you need.

6/29/2020 at 9:12 AM

I would love to work on that relationship calculator, and get it to return all relationships. It seems multiple relationships are defined at times, and it returns the first one it finds

6/29/2020 at 2:11 PM

To Anne Brannen:
Thank you so very much for your help and your response, this is great.
Thank you,
Sincerely,
Dona Floyd Kimmons

7/30/2020 at 6:07 AM

Dona Lorine Kimmons, Sr., regarding your query here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/216409?msg=1406731, I see that numbers of people did give you help with it on this Discussion.

7/30/2020 at 8:32 AM

Sharon Lee Doubell"
What does it mean when someone tags you?
Dona Lorine Kimmons

7/30/2020 at 11:25 AM

It makes sure that Discussion shows in your feed.

8/2/2020 at 4:00 AM

I am finished with my discussion on "Henry II "Curmantle", king of England.
Dona Lorine Kimmons

8/8/2020 at 7:41 AM

Unless it's on the same line, I don't see a problem that one person might be listed as both 23rd and 24th grandfather as there are many cases where that could happen, especially considering the cousins marrying cousins that occurred so frequently. I show relationship lines following from both my maternal grandparents that lead to the same ancestors but in different generations. I am trying to grok why there is an issue, again, unless it's following the exact same line? Sorry, not trying to reopen something that seems resolved, just wondering? thanks!

8/9/2020 at 3:35 AM

Mary Finneran:
I don't know what the word grok means. Nevertheless, I don't care if one is listed as 23rd and the other 24th gr-grandfather, that is fine with me. But I do question the now relationship of her other husband, Louis VII , which shows a way out distant cousin, even thought am through discussing all of them.
Dona Lorine Kimmons

Private User
8/9/2020 at 7:52 AM

"I don't know what the word grok means."

It means, to understand, totally and completely, in all aspects. (Origin: Robert A. Heinlein, "Stranger in a Strange Land".)

Private User
8/9/2020 at 7:55 AM

As for 12th century royalty, they were already heavily inbred - and that situation only worsened over the centuries. So if you get one of them, you've probably got most or all of them.

(The English royal family has avoided the worst effects by occasional outcrossings to commoners. The French - not so much, and the Spanish worst of all, as they inbred themselves out of existence.)

8/10/2020 at 3:05 AM

Maven B. Helms:
Thank you for your explanations. I know all about inbreding in the Royal Families, they wanted to keep the Royal Bloodline. After Merovech was assassinated, and the mayors of the palace took over, which led to Charlemagne, he even took a Merovingian Princess to keep the King's bloodline going.
Dona Lorine Kimmons

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