Philip, Prince of England - Sources?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Tuesday, July 21, 2020
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7/22/2020 at 5:54 AM

I have read extensively of a number of books, historical documents all, that discuss Henry II and Eleanor - none ever mentioned a Phillip. Their five sons were Arthur (died young) Henry (died before 1184) Richard (1154-1199), Geoffrey (died during Richard's reign), and John (1165-1216). The only Phillip I know of was a young French prince Phillip who was the younger brother of Alois, who was picked as John's future wife (that fell through).

7/22/2020 at 5:37 PM

I have to agree with William Roe. My research shows no Phillip born to Eleanor of Equitaine, among her 8 children.

7/22/2020 at 6:13 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_Aquitaine

John Speed, in his 1611 work History of Great Britain, mentions the possibility that Eleanor had a son named Philip, who died young. His sources no longer exist, and he alone mentions this birth.[22]

22. Weir, Alison (1999). Eleanor of Aquitaine: A Life

7/22/2020 at 6:17 PM

(Always interesting to chase the citations)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Speed#Published_works

It was with the encouragement of William Camden that Speed began his Historie of Great Britaine, which was published in 1611.[24][25] Although he probably had access to historical sources that are now lost to us (he certainly used the work of Saxton and Norden), his work as a historian is now considered secondary in importance to his map-making ,
...

7/22/2020 at 6:22 PM

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A12738.0001.001/1:8.7.2?rgn=div3;...

(106) Philip, the fifth sonne of King Henrie, and Queene Eleanor, may bee mistrusted, to be mistaken by Antiquaries of our time, as misunder-standing the ancient writers, who mentioning the birth of Philip the Kings sonne, might by good likelihood, be thought to meane, Philip sonne of Lew•… the Yonger King of France, who was borne about this time, and was after King of the same Countrey. But Mr Tho∣•…as Talbot, an exact trauailer in genealogies, hath not onely set him downe in this place, amongst the children of this King, but also warranteth the same, to bee done with good authoritie: howsoeuer, it is apparant, his life was verie short.

Private User
7/22/2020 at 6:35 PM

A possible source fof confusion is that Eleanor *used to be married to Louis VII*. They were not compatible, they had only daughters, and eventually he divorced her (but it took him two more wives to get a son - Philip II Augustus).

Eleanor got her revenge by marrying Henry of Anjou and becoming Queen of England, with a passel of sons by Henry (but no known Philip).

7/22/2020 at 6:38 PM

John Speed (The Historian) John Speed (The Historian) is your fourth great uncle's 6th great grandfather.

Speed “did” have a reference for Philip:

“Mr Tho∣•…as Talbot, an exact trauailer in genealogies, hath not onely set him downe in this place, amongst the children of this King, but also warranteth the same, to bee done with good authoritie: howsoeuer, it is apparant, his life was verie short.”

So who was this Thomas Talbot?

Private User
7/22/2020 at 10:04 PM
7/23/2020 at 1:24 AM

I think the reference to Philip would be in “ collections relating to abbeys, extracts from chronicles and pedigrees (including that of his own family) in Cottonian MS. Vespasian D. xvii.” Held at the British Library, but this series not yet digitized.

https://www.bl.uk/collection-guides/cotton-manuscripts

7/23/2020 at 5:21 AM

I see you added the source to the profile, Thank you.

7/23/2020 at 5:53 AM

Maybe someday someone will find and add Talbots reference to the profile. I could be guessing the wrong collection. In any case, takes in person, and I imagine the original manuscript needs re translation, if indeed it has survived.

8/11/2020 at 6:44 AM

The only Phillip I have ever discovered was King Phillip II of France who was the son of Eleanor's former husband, King Louis VII of France. Eleanor gave him five daughters but no son so the KIng had the Pope declare the marriage no longer existed and the King was free of Eleanor and she married Henry II of England. Louis's new wife, Constance of Castile (northern Spain) who bore him Alois (Alice) and Phillip who succeded Louis in 1180. Alois was betrothed to Prince John. Phillip was a friend of Richard the Lionheart, Henry's son and successor in 1189. That is as close as any Phillip connected with Henry II and Eleanor of Acquitaine. This discussion should die out.

8/12/2020 at 12:16 PM

This Philip, Prince of England is sourced as a child of Eleanor and Henry ll who died young.

Private User
8/12/2020 at 1:10 PM

Must've measured his life span in days...or hours. Otherwise we'd have heard of him.

8/13/2020 at 4:42 AM

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A12738.0001.001/1:8.7.2?rgn=div3;...

“ ... 106) Philip, the fifth sonne of King Henrie, and Queene Eleanor, ... born about this time ... , howsoeuer, it is apparant, his life was verie short.“

Good point, no idea where dates come from.

8/13/2020 at 7:03 AM

Katherine (Trye) Dennis

this profile needs a little tweaks by a curator - or something - + something perhaps MP and Lock UP as well, - gets a lot of traffic goes right into the Dennis lineage

8/13/2020 at 8:18 AM

Katherine Trye has a bad merge on it:

https://www.geni.com/merge/view?revision_id=78570792410

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