Eberhard von Thurgau - Zürichgau - Eberhards!!!

Started by Erica Howton on Friday, April 9, 2021
Showing all 18 posts
4/9/2021 at 6:42 AM

This discussion to double check that we’ve gotten them sorted correctly. We need to build good curator notes, and I know I need to understand better.

Alex Moes You had worked around here before.

Reidar Holmsen has contributed some notes and sources to study:

“Alain Foullon has got a tree that I consider to be following the most accurate of the traditional ways of seeing these families and their relations. I would believe it follows for instance Europäischer Stamtafeln. (The one that Medlands starts with.)“

EBERHARD II father of Eberhard III

https://gw.geneanet.org/foullon?lang=en&pz=alessio+alain+heribe...

EBERHARD III son of Eberhard II

https://gw.geneanet.org/foullon?lang=en&pz=alessio+alain+heribe...

Eberhardinger
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https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eberhardinger

Grafen Nellenburg
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Burmeister, Karl Heinz, "Nellenburg, Grafen von" in: Neue Deutsche Biographie 19 (1999)
https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/gnd122316150.html#ndbcontent

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafen_von_Nellenburg

Regilinde Married with Burkhard I Herzog von Schwaben and later to Herman I Herzog von Schwaben
--------------------------------------------------------
Zotz, Thomas, "Reginlinde" in: Neue Deutsche Biographie 21 (2003)
https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/sfz30908.html#ndbcontent

4/9/2021 at 6:43 AM

Another Eberhard II, Graf von Zürichgau - we know they’re different, but are we accurate in all ways?

4/9/2021 at 6:52 AM

I like checking from children up. Leo Van Der Pas sourced from Europäischer Stamtafeln, and shows

Reginlinde von Nellenburg

As child of https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00570222&tr...

4/9/2021 at 7:01 AM

To the best of my knowledge Europäischer Stamtafeln is not openly available online, so saying someone follows it is not the same as knowing that what is on Geni is the same as what is in Europäischer Stamtafeln.

Like everyone else Europäischer Stamtafeln is sometimes wrong, confused, silent.

Medlands is publicly available so I always start from there. Charles is sometimes wrong, confused, silent, but at least he is doing it publicly :)

4/9/2021 at 7:02 AM

It does not appear Cawley or Van der Pas have parents for Eberhard l.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SWABIAN%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc301250101

EBERHARD [I] (-after 27 Jun 889). Graf im Zürichgau. The dating clause of a charter dated 27 Jun 889, under which “Perehtelo...” donated property to abbey, notes “sub dominatione Eberharti comitis et advocati sui Adalberti”[609]. same person as...? ---. m GISELA, daughter of --- (-after 911). The Annales Alamannicorum record that "Gisle…socrui Purchardi iunioris" donated all her property to St Peter's in 911[610]. One child:

a) REGINLIND ([885/90]-Insel Ufenau 958 after 29 Apr). Reginlind's mother´s identity is confirmed by the reference noted above, but direct proof that Graf Eberhard [I] was her father has not yet been found. Regino records that "viduam Burchardi" married "Herimanno"[611]. The Liber Anniversariorum of Einsiedeln records in Aug the donation of "Stevegeia, Kaltbrunnen et Lindowa" by "domina Regelinda cum filio suo Burcardo duce"[612]. "Otto…rex" granted property "in pago Zuriggaui in comitatu Liudonis commitis" to "Erig" at the request of "Regilinde…comitisse" by charter dated 10 Mar 952[613]. "Otto…rex" donated property "in pago Engrisgouue in comitatu Uualtbrahtti in loco…Uuidhergis" to "matrone fidelique nostre Reginlind" at the request of "Burghardi ducis" by charter dated 29 Apr 958[614]. m firstly (before 911) BURKHARD [II], son of BURKHARD [I] Marchio in Rätien [Duke of Swabia] & his wife --- (-murdered Novara 28/29 Apr 926). He was installed as BURKHARD II Duke of Swabia in 917. m secondly HERMANN I Duke of Swabia, son of GEBHARD Graf im oberen Rheingau [Konradiner] & his wife Hidda --- (-10 Dec 949, bur Reichenau Island).

4/9/2021 at 7:05 AM

It's too late for me, maybe tomorrow, two off the cuff observations:

Eberhard II, Graf von Zürichgau Graaf van Zurichgau is apparently son of Eberhard von Sülichen, Graf von Sülichgau, Herzog von Bayern with only 2 sisters. As the heir apparent why is the son only a graff in switzerland if the father was a herzog in germany?

Eberhard von Thurgau - Zürichgau if he is Count in Zurichgau would presumably be connected to this family https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SWABIAN%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc514513192

4/9/2021 at 7:05 AM

Reidar can check online trees vs books at the Royal Library when less pandemic. :(. But we have careful & transparent sites in agreement so far, so if we make a mistake, it would be the traditional mistake.

4/9/2021 at 7:11 AM
4/9/2021 at 7:13 AM

I saw https://www.geni.com/discussions/229161?msg=1465421 on Medlands but he predates the two eberhards mentioned so far by a century-ish

4/9/2021 at 7:56 AM

How is the procedure? Someone made a strange merger and now we are working on two profiles that were curated by other people and had a lot of users/managers tied to the two Eberhards. Isn't there a procedure to notion the people who built up the tree from the beginning? I am thinking of persons like: David John Bilodeau
Private User
Private User
Private User
Pam Wilson (may be slow to respond)
Scott David Hibbard
Private User
FARKAS Mihály László
Bo Garsteen
James Frederick Pultz
Private User
Erin Ishimoticha
Stéphane Pierre Édouard Chappellier
Ds. Matthys Gerhardus Müller
Ric Dickinson
Private User
Tristan Blach-Laflèche
Private User

4/9/2021 at 8:23 AM

Welcome to collective genealogy!

I know I can’t be sure we put back to what it was, or that what it was “best we know.”

Tagging the managers is very helpful, thank you.

4/9/2021 at 9:16 AM

Thanks for pulling this discussion together you all. It seems like a pretty important line or lines to get straight. I wish I knew more to contribute. Other than finding two sets of parents and the original mess, I am winging it, but if I can do something. Let me know. I am following along to try to understand. I always learn so much!

4/9/2021 at 6:14 PM

Reidar Holmsen when you tag a profile in a public discussion all of the managers and any user who is Following the profile should recieve a notification that the profile has been mentioned and a link to the discussion.

Whether the individuals have that notification turned on and whether they pay any attention to it are different questions.

Tagging individual users is probably more likely to get you a response but can become tedious :)

4/9/2021 at 6:24 PM

Alex Moes, what you write is pretty obvious. Many thanks!

The managers, curators, users to these profiles and profiles around (ancestors and descendants) have put a lot of effort in doing some kind of research previously.

They should receive a notice out of the principles of honesty and transparency in research. Otherwise it's hi-jacking.

What kind of notification is shown in the stream and how it's noticed by the user I have not delved into. Is the collaboration wanted or not?

4/9/2021 at 6:37 PM

Reidar, it is very much an individual question.

Many users join Geni, are active for a while then never come back.
Some users add a profile to Geni and never look at it again.
Some users add profiles to Geni because they are copying an online tree from some website, some users add profiles to Geni because they are copying from an old book, the idea that the website or book they are copying from might not be accurate never occurs to them.

4/10/2021 at 1:46 AM

Alex, we know that there exist a lot of different Geni users, with different motives and different capacity and methodology.

What is also important to accept is that not all persons can work intensively or full time with the research. People have different time zones and occupations. Therefore one must give people a chance to get a message and to allocate time.

Among the users, managers, curators that have previously been working with the "two Eberhards cluster" are five or six curators,some of them 'founding fathers' of Geni (or how to put it). I assume they had put a lot of effort in building knowledge. I also assume they could contribute a lot.

Or are we to side-step them for other reasons?

4/10/2021 at 10:29 AM

We remember from school that Charlemagne had his seat in Aachen and that after his son the wast empire was divided into three parts and then a fourth son was born. What could go wrong?

Louis the Pious was the son of Charlemagne and Hildegard.
On his father's death in 814, he inherited the entire Carolingian Empire and all its possessions (with the sole exception of the kingdom of Italy; although within Louis's empire, in 813 Charlemagne had ordered that Bernard, Pepin's son be made and called king).

Louis's first act was to purge the palace of what he considered undesirable. He destroyed the old Germanic pagan tokens and texts which had been collected by Charlemagne. He further exiled members of the court he deemed morally "dissolute", including some of his own relatives.[11]

He quickly sent all of his many unmarried (half-)sisters and nieces to nunneries in order to avoid any possible entanglements from overly powerful brothers-in-law.[10] Sparing his illegitimate half-brothers Drogo, Hugh and Theoderic, he forced his father's cousins, Adalard and Wala to be tonsured, placing them in into monastic exile at St-Philibert on the island of Noirmoutier and Corbie, respectively, despite the latter's initial loyalty.[12]

He made Bernard, margrave of Septimania, and Ebbo, Archbishop of Reims his chief counsellors

After the treaty of Verdun the partitioning of the Frankish empire after verdun 843
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Verdun#/media/File:Vertrag_...

the division of the empire into three souvereign entities was settled. West Francia and East Francia became the kernels of modern France and Germany respectively. Middle Francia, that included Burgundy, the Low Countries and northern Italy among other regions was only short-lived until 855 and later reorganized as Lotharingia.

Lothair I as King of Middle Francia
Louis the German as King of East Francia
Charles the Bald as King of West Francia

Louis had by his first wife, Ermengarde of Hesbaye (married c. 794),[30] he had three sons and three daughters:

Lothair (795–855), king of Middle Francia

Pepin (797–838), king of Aquitaine

Adelaide (b. c. 799)

Rotrude (b. 800)

Hildegard (or Matilda) (b. c. 802)

Louis the German (c. 806–876), king of East Francia

By his second wife, Judith of Bavaria, he had a daughter and a son:

Gisela, married Eberhard of Friuli

Charles the Bald, king of West Francia

By Theodelinde of Sens, he had two illegitimate children:

Arnulf of Sens

Alpais

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The church was extremely important for the frankish expansion and the families put their relatives on vital clerical posts.

The papal church was on it's side dependent on the franks for expansion and for the elimination of competition. See for example the Aryans princes that were wiped out.

Louis sought to prevent the dangers of such division by law of hereditary succession published in 817, by which the sovereign power and the imperial crown were to be passed to the oldest son. This law was probably enacted through the influence of the Church, which approved of this unity of the supreme power and the Crown, as being in harmony with the idea of the Kingdom of God and also as required by the hierarchical economy of the church organization.

When Louis had a fourth son, by his second wife, Judith, he immediately set aside the law of partition of 817 for the benefit of the new heir. An odious struggle broke out between father and sons, and among the sons themselves. In 833 the emperor was captured by his sons at the battle of Luegenfeld (field of lies) near Colmar. Pope Gregory IV was at the time in the camp of the sons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Ger...

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The families that we deal with here on Geni are descendants of femilies and clans that were in power already before Charlemagne. The were the foundation of the Frankish Empire and it's expansion.

They are among others:
Agilolfings‎, Ahalolfing dynasty‎, Aleramici, Anscarids, ‎
Bosonids, Conradins,‎ Etichonids, Gerulfingians, Guideschis,
Herbertiens, Hunfridingers, Luitpoldings‎, Ottonians,
Robertians‎, Rorgonids, Unruochinger, Nibelungids, Ramnulfids etc etc.

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The key to understanding the situation with Eberhard II and Eberhard III
is that their ancestors had been in the game since Charlemagne. They had close ties and relations with the Imperial family and Louis the Pious and Louis the German.

They also founded churches and monastries. Part of their history is known by deeds concering this.

The Adalbert III who married Gisela and his father Adalbert II who was married to Judith of Friuli
gives us information that the control of Rätia was crucial. Switzerland and Austria did of course not yet exist, we must look and talk about the concrete regions, Zürichgau, Rätia, Carintia, etc.

We see from these families that they had property and influence
in what is now called Italy. We must look on who inherited what land and property.

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4/10/2021 at 10:56 AM

Wonderful summary for me. Thank you.

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