Elizabeth (Unknown) Simmons - Maiden Name

Started by Debbie Gambrell on Sunday, August 15, 2021
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8/15/2021 at 4:25 PM

The mother of Elizabeth Moore had previously been the Stevens / Stephens wife of Thomas Moore II but was recently changed to Elizabeth (Moore) Simmons who is shown as an ex-partner rather than a wife of Thomas Moore II. Thomas Moore II is no longer connected as the father of the daughter Elizabeth previously attributed to him. Her father has been changed to John Wiley Simmons. No parents are attached to this Elizabeth and no documentation of who they might have been, so I've changed her name from Elizabeth (Moore) Simmons to Elizabeth (Unknown) Simmons based on what is currently showing on her connections.

Private
8/15/2021 at 8:40 PM
8/15/2021 at 8:46 PM

Is there a connection? Those seem to be two totally different women.

Private
8/15/2021 at 9:06 PM

We could use many a Simmons descendant for atDna connection studies to specific Moores.

8/15/2021 at 10:14 PM

I was noticing that the Elizabeth you posted the link above for died in Maryland. That doesn't seem to fit the geography for the other lines in the mix being worked on.

I looked at all the profile managers' pages who are connected to John Wiley Simmons hoping to find a gedmatch kit# but no one has any listed. But even if I matched any of them I wouldn't be sure I'm conclusivelly matching them on a Simmons line or just some other way due to endogamy.

You had a SNP identified for Thomas Moore and you and I matched there. I don't even know what to say at this point.

Do you have a SNP identified for the Simmons line, aside from any Moore connection to them, because I looked up that line connected beyond John Wiley and don't see any Moores in the mix.

Private
8/15/2021 at 10:26 PM

Does anyone have proof that this person was from Bristol ???
atDna Decision To Ferret Out - - Was the Moore husband/partner the father of her daughter? The John Wiley Simmon's line throws a curve ball of endagomy to the scenario because that same SNP of 8 6 is where those particular Parker descendants also pile up. The Moore spouse / partner took on the Moore name, so he was for sure related. This is the hardest NPE to work out because we have My Heritage trees saying this person was a Simmons and the only possible Simmons she coulld be married to of that time and place is John Wiley Simmons. Either way you go, this daughter's line goes back to the SNP 8 6 for its descendants in very close to 7 cM matches. Problem is, both the "Moore" and the Parker got to the same folks. Doubtful this person was from England. We can ferret out if the dad was the Simmons or the Moore by running all the descendant kits we can find and then find only Simmons parties of that family that do not share Parker.

8/15/2021 at 10:29 PM

Excellent!

Private
8/15/2021 at 10:51 PM

We have a verdict. John Simmons is the progenitor of the Surry Co and Nottoway area Simmons. We know this by clicking on the Elizabeth Simmons tagged in this discussion and clicking Actions Tab and Clicking Ancestors. Luckily, We have hundreds of kit participants from this line already in the previous workings due to the line of the Ruth Duncan descendants, most of whom tested with 23andMe and they do very well know their signature SNPs of the kit managing parties and some have the Parker lineage but most do not. Luckily we have 23andMe doing our work for us on the Armistead Morehead line to the Elizabeth Simmons and the verdict comes down to Thomas Moore being the father of her child because as the avatar shows, that particular signature SNP that is "Parker and aka Moore" double to the kit participants of the Morehead test kits than it is for the Duncan claimant kits. So, the revision back to the Moore as the father is the right path.

8/15/2021 at 11:13 PM

I've been running searches on My Heritage and can't find what you had seen on there. What is listed here on Geni for John Wiley Simmons shows up and several trees with a John Wiley Simmons born 1702-1720 and died 1773 but those don't have parents or wives listed, no geographical locations, just all real sketchy.

The only match I can find on My Heritage is actually the link to the profile here on Geni showing wife as Mary Ann Parker. I can't find one with a wife named Elizabeth by any surname.

This particular one is managed by a Simons:

John Wiley Simmons
MyHeritage Family Trees
Simons Web Site, managed by Pamela Simons
Birth
1702 - Place
Death
Day Month 1773 - Place
Parents
<Private> Simmons, Jr., Father's name
Siblings
Leonard Simmons and names of 4 more siblings

This one is also managed by a Simmons:

John Wiley Simmons
MyHeritage Family Trees
Simmons Web Site, managed by Mollie Simmons
Birth
1702 - Place
Death
Day Month 1773 - Place
Parents
Names of both parents
Siblings
John Michael Simmons and names of 8 more siblings

I shared those because they carry the Simmons surname and maybe they have gedmatch kits.

Private
8/15/2021 at 11:26 PM

The Parker name came with the Geni tree. The planters families were neighbors and deed shows who lived where, next to Bryans. The only Parker who can work at that time and location is the one on Geni now, so luckily the Morehead line matches have double the cM and do not have have Parker in their line, for the majority of them, and so the plus mark winner of the dad position is Moore. The reason the tree is so lacking is war time troubles. Read the Battle of Moore's Bridge. Lot's of non parent evens happen in wars.

8/16/2021 at 12:30 AM

I imagine that's very true. I know that one of my cousins has written up articles about how the Civil War widows, for example, so often married again quickly for financial assistance and security for them and their minor children. But I can well imagine that there were children born inconveniently during those times.

8/16/2021 at 10:06 AM

So, my take-away from last night is that Thomas Moore, Jr., Old Cheraw is, in fact the father of Elizabeth who married John 'the Shoemaker' Moore. Is that correct?

And is Elizabeth Simmons or Mary Ann Parker her mother? I want to be sure I'm on the same page as you. When you stated:

" that particular signature SNP that is "Parker and aka Moore" double to the kit participants of the Morehead test kits than it is for the Duncan claimant kits. So, the revision back to the Moore as the father is the right path."

is that saying the Elizabeth who married John 'the Shoemaker' Moore was a Moore / Parker child?

Private
8/16/2021 at 11:42 AM

In this mirror tree frame work, she is having the child of spouse Thomas Moore's child. That means she as a Birth Name Unknown or Bnu. This means she is the brick wall.

Private
8/16/2021 at 11:43 AM

In other words, it all is as good as it can be unless someone comes forward with some primary sources.

8/16/2021 at 2:03 PM

Ok, gotcha.

8/16/2021 at 2:07 PM

Except...she still not connected to Thomas Moore as her father. She's still showing as:

Elizabeth Moore

with the Simmons / Parker parents

8/17/2021 at 3:17 PM

Rachelle Roby kit#AH6520100 what's the status on this? You last indicated it's conclusive she's the daughter of Thomas Moore, Jr., Old Cheraw but she's still connected to the Simmons / Parker parents. So when I'm tracing lines on Geni, I don't know if my connections are valid or not...Simmons or Moore. Right now everything I trace shows the Parker / Simmons line. If it's supposed to be Moore, her connections need to be corrected. Thanks.

Private
8/17/2021 at 3:36 PM

We have a problem, Houston. The spouse is a Moore. UGH. So now I am not able to know if the cluster matches are due to him, which would make as much since as THomas Moore being the dad. The thing is both Moore and Simmons are close cousins. We don't have JUST ONLY a Simmons line without a Moore line. I am waiting to make any changes, please.

8/17/2021 at 4:01 PM

Ok, and that's a good point about the spouse. So she 'could' be a Simmons / Parker child and my Moore atDNA match could be via her husband John Moore instead of a Moore dad? UGH is right! Endogamy makes everything sooo complex!

Private
8/17/2021 at 4:26 PM

So true but without it, we could not go back that far with atDna.

8/17/2021 at 4:49 PM

Also true. :)

8/20/2021 at 11:50 AM

Ok, I'm a believer in the Simmons / Parker connection now for these reasons:

1) back in 2019 I was told I match the Page, Yeopim cluster but too far back to identify my ancestor. I just saw where one of my Strickland cousinss had posted his lineage on the Page lines on Facebook and it all clicked...it's only via the Simmons / Parker lines that that particular Page connections would be related to me. And it is, as you said, a distant ancestor.

2) I was having difficulty of 'letting go' of my connection to Thomas Moore Jr. because of the Moore DNA match, but you pointed out that Elizabeth (Simmons) Moore married a Moore, so of course I'm going to match Moore DNA.

The connections made via the Parker / Simmons line actually answer a long-standing mystery of how I'm a descendant of that Page line and ties it all together finally.

So, I have to apologize for any annoyance my questions may have caused. I should have know you'd be on the right trail. I mean, you ARE a DNA bloodhound! lol

Private
8/20/2021 at 1:31 PM

Score for Team N8V

8/20/2021 at 3:04 PM

For sure :)

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