Joshua “Old Jock” Perkins - Joshua Perkins Y-DNA

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Private User
вчера в 1:00 после полудня

Proof that Joshua Perkins descended from an Englishman? Just wondering because many male descendants of Joshua Perkins are haplogroup E-M96 from Africa and are grouped with a male descendant of Emanuel Driggers. Can be found on two projects on FamilytreeDNA.

Thank you.

Mary Ann

вчера в 1:11 после полудня

I have proof because the perkins are English those are my direct maternal lines as well as old jock is my 6th and my mom and uncles 5th gr grandfather which i have plenty of dna too that are on gedmatch group project as well as ancestry thru lines.

вчера в 1:12 после полудня

Y dna is not a accurate study everyone knows you get more maternal dna from your mom on both sides. As well as a company that messes with snps i do not trust

Private User
вчера в 1:17 после полудня

Not talking about maternal line. Talking about direct male line.

Private User
вчера в 1:20 после полудня

Direct male line only looks at your father, your father's father, etc.

Private User
вчера в 1:47 после полудня

This is what a Y-DNA test can tell you:

"Your Y-DNA matches will share a common ancestor with you on your direct paternal line. That common ancestor can be recent (within a generation or two) or more distant (living up to a 1000 years ago or so). The tools and data gained through a Y-DNA test can help you learn more about your patrilineal family history.

Discover your relatives' paternal country of origin.

Identify paternal earliest known ancestors.

View and explore the Family Trees of your matches."

Y-DNA tests can't tell you about your direct maternal line. A mtDNA test would need to be done.

вчера в 3:16 после полудня

Private User - thank you very much. Wasn’t this on Dr Louis Gates show a few years ago?

So either Joshua Perkins was the son of an unknown man - N.N. - and Judith (Driggers) Perkins also married John Perkins gave his surname name to her children.

Or the entire family called themselves Perkins, and had nothing to do with the Massachusetts Perkins family, and we should disconnect him from John Perkins, Jr.

вчера в 3:27 после полудня

John Perkins, Jr. Had no sons, so is not related to “old Jock” Perkins in any event.

вчера в 3:35 после полудня

Edith Ida Goins Is not a known child of John Perkins, Jr. & his wife Lydia. “Goins” is a Melungeon name, maybe she’s supposed to be related to this Driggers / Perkins family.

Private User
вчера в 3:50 после полудня

I've found the article about Esther Perkins that you are talking about and this is what Dr. Louis Gates had to say. Looks like Esther may have been the mother of Joshua Perkins.

"The original document in question, dated July 8, 1730, reads “Thomas Blair Gent. Came in to court & assumed to pay the fine of Esther Perkins for having a Bastard Child.” The entry does not state that the child was mixed-race, though the fact that she was required to pay a fine to the church wardens for having the child may suggest that Esther was white and the child was born of a black or mulatto man—a scenario the law penalized.

The laws in Virginia stated that the status of the child (whether he or she was free or enslaved) followed that of the mother, so it’s of little surprise that there were no such punishments for black women having children out of wedlock with white men.

It seems probable that since Esther Perkins was required to pay a fine for her out-of-wedlock offspring, the child was mixed-race. The record four years later indicating that Joshua and Darky Perkins were bounded out to James Gibson also follows this law that the children should then be bounded out for the benefit of the church. All of this suggests that Esther Perkins was a white woman who had mixed-race children."

Private User
вчера в 3:57 после полудня

Oops...missed the part where Dr. Louis Gates stated this:

"If they were orphans in the sense that both parents were deceased, it would mean that Esther could not have mothered three younger children that Heinegg attributes to her. However, as genealogist Robert Baird notes, the term “orphan” was mostly applied to fatherless children, regardless of whether the mother was still living. This would also be the case for children whose fathers are unknown or are not free themselves to be the guardian of their child. With this in mind, the term “orphan” used in these documents is likely not indicating that their mother is dead but, rather, that either their father is dead or he is not in a position to be their guardian and they are therefore the wards of the church."

Private User
вчера в 4:00 после полудня

I guess it's also possible that Esther Perkins might not have been Joshua's mother, if I'm understanding Dr. Gates's article correctly. Regardless, he appears to be related to the Driggers family paternally.

вчера в 4:08 после полудня

I hadn’t read this before, thanks. Here’s Patricia Waak’s book:

вчера в 4:16 после полудня

So are we looking at wrong generations?

I’m not seeing how the tree on Geni aligns with Patricia Waaks book or Gates article.

Let’s get the six possible children of Esther Perkins listed. If I’m seeing right, Old Jock was Esthers son by a man with Driggers Y DNA. Not Judith Driggers. Am I right?

Private User
вчера в 4:17 после полудня

Thank you. I'll check it out.

вчера в 4:36 после полудня

Private User (And also David Cremeans)

I’d like to rebuild the Esther Perkins tree based on Paul Heinegg’s study here

I’ll just set it up and then we can merge people into it. Right now it doesn’t resemble what I worked on a few years ago.

We can address Dr Gates caveats after.

вчера в 4:43 после полудня

Very good.

Private User
вчера в 5:59 после полудня


Great Read and very informative.

Especially read NASH-PETERS (includes PERKINS FAMILY)

4. Joshua 1 Perkins (Esther 1) note: Joshua Perkins was the son of Esther 1 Perkins.
In 1858 there was a trial where Joshua's great-grandson, Jacob F. Perkins, sued John R.
White for slander because he called him a "free Negro."

T.A.R. Nelson was Jacob Perkins' trial lawyer. Nelson took many notes and summitted
many dispositions.
This is the trial where Joshua was referred to as Joshua/Jock (later to be known as "Old

Also in part: Eighteen elderly deponents, many who had known the family when they lived
near the Pee Dee River in South Carolina (where Joshua had apparently moved after
selling his Bladen County land), deposed that they had known Joshua / Jock and his
George, Jacob, Joshua, Isaac, Lewis, and Polly. He kept race horses and a ferry by Roan's
Creek and associated with "decent, respectable" white people like Landon Carter. In 1785
he moved back to North Carolina; in 1793 married, apparently for the second time, Mary/
Polly Black who was fair skinned, called a Scotch woman; (Old Jock) and died on 10 April
1801 [The Perkins File in the T.A.R. Nelson Papers in the Calvin M. McClung Collection at
the East Tennessee Historical Center, depositions of Anna Graves and John J. Wilson].
He was apparently the Joshua Perkins who was in Marlboro County on 2 September 1791
when the court allowed him £3 for the support (probably during an illness) of his wife (Mary,
NOT Mary P. Black) who the court record referred to as Elenor [Minutes 1785-1807, n.p.].
However, she gave her name as Mary Perkins when she testified in Marlboro County on 22
October 1792 that:

Isaac Perkins & Lewis Perkins of said County are her children and that she believes her
Grandmother was a white woman.
And that no part of her family was ever considered or believed as being under the
disabilities of he law so as to make them liable to pay public Tax any sooner than the
whitest man in this State.

Note that Joshua "Old Jock" married his second wife, Mary Polly Black in 1793. His first
wife Mary died in 1792, AND this Mary was the mother of Old Jock's children, NOT Mary
Polly Black, because she was YOUNGER than Old Jock's youngest child, so many people
have incorrectly listed this on their trees, and it really has mine all messed up, because I
can't delete incorrect information from my tree.

Also, NOWHERE is it found to be true that an Unknown Driggers is Old Jock's father. It is widely speculated that this is true, but more Y-DNA from father/son Driggers ancestors must be done.

Mary Ann, you are correct in so many ways.

вчера в 6:08 после полудня

So here’s an updated tree for Esther Perkins 1 - without Driggers and Perkinses attached, and based on Heinegg.

However, here’s another wrinkle. M.K. Miles, a genealogist specializing in the Eastern Shore, has broken them out into Esther l & Esther ll. Wikitree says it’s speculative but they Peter out on their tree.

I think we need to take Miles very seriously. It doesn’t alter substantially but it might better fit chronologically.

вчера в 6:10 после полудня

Esther Perkins I1,2

  • F, b. circa 1712, d. before 3 September 1734


  • 1. Dorcas 'Darky' Perkins+4 b. c 1728, d. b 27 Jan 1746/47
  • 2. Esther Perkins II (free mulatto)+3 b. 1730
  • 3. Joshua Perkins4 b. 1732
  • 4. George Perkins (mulatto) b. 1734
  • 5. Keziah Perkins5 b. c 1736
вчера в 6:12 после полудня

Esther Perkins II (free mulatto)1,2

  • F, b. 1730
  • Mother Esther Perkins I1 b. c 1712, d. b 3 Sep 1734


  • 1. Jacob Perkins (mulatto)3 b. Dec 1745
  • 2. Arcadia Perkins (mulatto)4 b. 1746
  • 3. Jacob Perkins (mulatto)3 b. Dec 1746
  • 4. Jemmy Perkins (mulatto)4 b. 1748
  • 5. Samson Perkins (mulatto)3 b. Dec 1749
  • 6. Joshua Perkins5 b. c 1752, d. b 26 Sep 1832
  • 7. Nimrod Perkins b. c 1755, d. b 24 Sep 1849
Private User
вчера в 6:16 после полудня

Erica Howton, Esther ll is the daughter of Esther 1

вчера в 6:17 после полудня


Note that Joshua "Old Jock" married his second wife, Mary Polly Black in 1793. His first wife Mary died in 1792, AND this Mary was the mother of Old Jock's children, NOT Mary Polly Black, because she was YOUNGER than Old Jock's youngest child, so many people have incorrectly listed this on their trees, and it really has mine all messed up, because I can't delete incorrect information from my tree.


I’ll make sure the kids are moved over to the 1st wife Mary. We do that in Geni on the relationships tab. I don’t want to lock too much yet because I want feedback on the Miles Files. NB: MK Miles linked 2 Perkins as possible brothers to Esther l but we can just Hyperlink, which is better until more proven out.

Private User
вчера в 6:23 после полудня

Erica Howton, No wrinkle on my believes, I have gotten most of my information from who I consider the experts, Joshua "Old Jock" Perkins Family Research Facebook group. Those people have been researching Old Jock for many many years. Much money, time, visits to research court house records and newspaper archives have been put into their effort.

Private User
вчера в 6:44 после полудня

BTW, Esther 1 's last name is UNKNOWN and her parents are also UNKNOWN.

Private User
вчера в 8:25 после полудня

Definitely true that more DNA testing needs to be done. Still an ongoing DNA project.

вчера в 9:23 после полудня

So do we want to go with the Esther l and Esther ll configuration? I like it because

  • 1) easy to merge them back together if it proves out
  • 2) resolves some sticky chronology issues without contorting
  • 3) allows for more unknown fathers to be identified

I’m not sure I understand Esther l is unknown surname. Aren’t all the court records for Esther Perkins?

Private User
Сегодня в 4:41 до полудня

Erica, My fault for not clarifying more, Esther Perkins I with unknown parents. From What I have been able to assert is, "Was Perkins her parents name OR someone she was indentured to?"
I am researching this.

Сегодня в 7:13 до полудня

Revision Tab shows a merge this morning and it needs a reversal.

Сегодня в 7:16 до полудня

The unmerge of this mornings merge will likely fix these errors: Joshua “Old Jock” Perkins born after the death of his mother Esther Perkins ll.Arcadia Perkins born after the death of his mother Esther Perkins ll.James Jemmy Perkins born after the death of his mother Esther Perkins ll.Abram Nimrod Perkins born after the death of his mother Esther Perkins ll.Cady Perkins born after the death of his mother Esther Perkins ll.

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