Robert Peverell - Suggestion

Started by Private User on Thursday, September 16, 2021
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Private User
9/16/2021 at 5:21 PM

Leading with source(s) that present evidence related person profiles is optimal. Darrell Wolcott does not mention anything about a “Robert” Percevel. The three linked webpages only present excellent information about the surname Percevel and several of others so surnamed therein.

For what it's worth ... or not,

Private User
9/17/2021 at 10:27 AM

Thanks, Debra!
I found the Red Book Exchequer, Part I on the website, which the seemingly most credible cited source indicated. Alas! all but the over-long preface and the back part was in Latin. On page 48 of that copy, there was no entry for Robert. Perevel. Perhaps the person who cited the source had a revised or an English translation of the book?

Private User
9/17/2021 at 1:29 PM

That is an awesome reference, Kenneth. And Old Latin is difficult even for language scholars. However, we need to confirm the parentage of Alice Peverel, wife of Hamon Pecche, in order to check whether this "Robert" belongs there.

Cawley's reference is: Dugdale Monasticon VI, Barnwell Priory, Cambridgeshire, II, De Morte Pagani Peverell, pp. 86-7...where he has chosen to read "Pagan" as "Robert".

John Willis Clark's 1907 version agrees with Dugdales, that she is the daughter of Pagan/Pain/Payne Peverel. She had three sisters and a brother, William.

But the nice thing about Clark's text is that he includes summaries in English along the margins of the original Latin.

Alice Peverel and Hamon Pecche had two sons, Gilbert and Galfrid (aka Walfred, I suppose).

Unfortunately, names sometimes become mangled in translation from Old Latin to Modern English. I have no idea why Cawley would present her father as "Robert (Payn)" -- but that's what he did there. And Geni ran with it, apparently.

Is Robert = Payne/Pagan? Idk. Maybe.

Private User
9/17/2021 at 4:10 PM

I haven't found Adelicia de Verdon in the text for Barnwell (although Findagrave claims she was buried there, with no source given for validation).

Cawley claims:

[Pagan Peverell, whom he calls "Robert"] married ADELISA, daughter of ---.

Citing as proof for this claim:

“Willielmus Peverel de Brunne” donated property “in Wildene villa mea…Oddewic” to Thorney Monastery, for the souls of “avunculi mei Willielmi Peverel de Doure…patris mei Rodberti Peverel fratris sui, et Hamonis Peverel avunculi mei et…matris meæ Adeliciæ, et…Henrici Regis Angliæ” by undated charter[281].

The tricky phrase is "patris mei Rodberti Peverel fratris sui" (no commas). This phrase comes after "my uncle William Peverel de Doure".

Translated as a whole, in its entirety it should read: "my father's brother ROBERT Peverel his [meaning Uncle William's] brother".

Does it make sense that this donation did not mention the donor's father? Yes I think so, but only if the father was still living at the time of the undated donation. Because it was specifically intended to pay for prayers for the souls of deceased family members.

If the father was still living, this donor's father could have been PAGAN Peverel (and Adelisa Unknown would have been PAGAN's wife, not Robert's).

Yet, I can't seem to find this particular individual in the same textbook with Alice Pecche. But perhaps I am mistaken.

However (and this is why translating Old Latin is so rough for an amateur like me), if instead we chop the phrase up into much smaller units (patris mei -- Rodberti Peverel -- fratris sui)...then Google gives it a radically different meaning: "my father Robert Peverel his brother".

Which, lacking the proper punctuation, is borderline gibberish to my ears. That's why I lean toward feeding the whole phrase into the translator at the same time. But I could be mistaken, as I'm certainly no Latin scholar. I have to rely heavily on logic in order to compensate :D


We know that Alice's brother was William Peverel, son of Pagan. In this record, assuming this is our William (I'm not 100% convinced) Adelicia Unknown is their mother. Which can only mean that at the time of this undated donation, their father, Pagan Peverel, was still living.

And Pagan Peverel had three deceased brothers (William Peverel de Doure, Robert Peverel, and Hamon Peverel) -- and a deceased wife, Adelicia/Adelisa Unknown. So he was likely aged at the time.

This undated record gives us:

PARENTS: Unknown Peverell who married Adelicia Unknown.

His father's brothers were: 1. "my uncle" William Peverel de Doure, 2. "my father's brother, ROBERT Peverel, his brother", and 3. "my uncle" Hamon Peverel.


WILLIAM PEVEREL DE BRUNNE of Wildene (his village) in Oddwick, near Thorney Monastery (donor)

Did this donor have 4 sisters, one who was Alice, wife of Hamon de Pecche? Maybe so.


I don't find this branch in the same textbook with Alice (Peverel) Pecche, and without further evidence would assume that they are cousins and that Cawley's source does not prove "Robert and Adelicia" as her parents. Nor "Pagan and Adelicia", for that matter. Because unless I'm mistaken or missed something, the locations don't seem to match up. However I have to admit my knowledge of English georgraphy and history is woeful indeed.

Private User
9/17/2021 at 4:51 PM

I found a family genealogy chart for them, showing Robert as Alice's uncle (with Adelicia as his wife). Uploading it now. Published 1920 by Cambridge University Press. Authored by William Farrar.

Private User
9/17/2021 at 5:19 PM

I see my mistake now. Alice really is Pagan/Pain's niece. She really is Robert's daughter. So I may have misinterpreted the Latin.

Private User
9/17/2021 at 5:25 PM

I saw an available hard copy of Red Book Exchequer, Part I on the Cambridge University publishing site (ISBN: 9781108053242]. It retails for $62, and the paperback is no longer in print. There's no way I'd pay a dime for a copy unless the Latin content was translated.

Given the academic historic value of the content, I wondered if the present 3 volumes "Red Book Exchequer" may've been translated by Cambridge Latin professors. The website did not indicate anything about Latin in the description.

A return email said, "We will be coordinating your query with the team that handles this request." I'm sure Cambridge Latin academics wouldn't translate the 3 volumes "Red Book Exchequer." unless they were well paid. But... it can't hurt to ask.

Private User
9/17/2021 at 5:49 PM

Thanks, Kenneth. I'm confident that researching the Red Book further will turn up a lot more information. But the online copy is free, and should be sufficient. You can cite it as a source of reference on the relevant profiles.

I do have one little problem with the tree though. Alice's father, Robert, is supposed to have another brother by the name of Pagan. But that's minor, since he has no spouse or children that I know of. Looking over the tree to check every profile for accuracy will take some time. I didn't realize Private User had already uploaded a nice chart for the family, years ago.

But more research doesn't hurt a bit.

:D I learned the hard way that the old Latin texts are only rarely translated into modern English. I have found a few, and a couple that were translated into other languages. Struggling with Google translate is no fun at all, and that's why I appreciate authors like John Willis Clark.

Translations are helpful, but even they may have the occasional misinterpretation, so I really wish I'd studied Latin and other languages more seriously when I was younger. And I nearly forgot to link my last source here:

Private User
9/17/2021 at 5:52 PM

And here's a link to the 3 volumes of The Red Book of the Exchequer, freely available to read online.

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