Jacob Yehuda Rosenberg - Children

We have a Vermont Death record for: Jacob's wife (and the children's mother) Toba.
And for sons Hirsche, Simon, and Isaac (as named on the Death Recirds)
Info in the New York, New York, U.S., Index to Death Certificates, 1862-1948 (per AncestryLibrary) for David.
And a Mass. Standard Certificate of Death for Meyer E.
That is 5 of their children, and in each case the records confirm who the parents are.

Of the 7 children we know for sure they had, we are only missing Death Records for 2:
Max who lived in Chicago and who currently has the surname Bloom on Geni
and Zorach who was other times called Sam or Samuel, and who lived in New York.

We have obits for Jacob's wife (and the children's mother) Toba,
And have obits for 4 sons: Meyer E., Simon, Harris (Hirsche on death record), and Isaac
All referencing what is clearly the same family
Three (so far) of the known sons are lacking obits: Max, Samuel / Zorach, and David.
But they are all named on some of the other obits.

We have a death record, an obit, and a gravestone for Max Bloom Max Rosenberg Bloom , but nothing to conclusively tie him to the Vermont family (nor rule him out). His death record gives his parents as Jacob and Bertha Tobey (which may be 2 first names rather than a first and last name). His gravestone names his father as Yaakov Yehuda. The obit mentions no siblings.

However, if Max Bloom was really born between 1857-1864 as various records indicate, and Toba was really born in 1804, then we have a probable age problem. While it's not strictly impossible that Toba could have given birth to a child at age 53, such occurrences are exceptionally rare.

So it's likely that Toba's birth year is incorrect, and/or Max's birth year is incorrect, and/or Max Bloom is not the same as Max Rosenberg son of Jacob Yehuda Rosenberg and Toba Fine.

(Similarly, Zorach's birth year is given as 1859. This is probably not the birth year of Zorach-son-of-Jacob Yehuda Rosenberg and Toba Fine, though it may be the birth year of some other Samuel or Zorach or James Rosenberg or Rozaitsky.)

I notice also that the siblings' birth places are widely disparate; Simon is alleged to have been born in Pinsk, while Isaac was alleged to have been born in Kovno. While people did move around, so we can't rule out the possibility, it seems more likely that the birthplace for one or the other of these siblings is incorrect.

Max Bloom of Chicago was from Jurbarkas, which was in Kovno Guberniya, as noted on his arrival manifest (under the name Mordche Blum).

Lisa - could you please upload the Death Record to Max's profile?

According to those Death Records I mentioned:
Simon died Dec. 17, 1919 -- it says he was Age 74 - date of birth unknown (aside: 1919-74=1845) - Birthplace Russia
Hirsche (=Harris) died July 10, 1924 - it says 85 years, 5 mos, 0 (or 6??) Days -- Date of Birth: Feb. 10, 1839 -- Birthplace: Russia
Isaac died Dec. 29, 1936 -- it says Age 84 (aside: 1936-84=1852) -- Date of Birth is blank -- Birthplace: Russia
--
In MA- Meyer died June 14, 1920 -- it says Age 72 -- Date of Birth: "- - - 1848" -- Birthplace: Russia
in the transcription of the NY Record -- David died 17 Feb 1923 -- it says Age 88 -- Birth Date: abt 1835 -- Birth Place: Russia
NOTE: On one or more of Toba's 1907 obits, it says David is the oldest, is 81

Parents are:
On Simon -- -- Jacob Rosenberg born Russia -- Tobey Fine born Russia
On Hirsche -- Jacob Rosenberg born Russia -- Tobiah Fine born Russia
On Isaac -- -- Jacob born Russia -- Tobiah Fine born Russia
On Meyer -- -- Jacob J born Russia -- Toibe Fine born Russia
On Transcription of David -- Jacob Rosenberg born Russia -- Tobe Rosenberg born Russia ( NEED TO SEE ORIGINAL -- if look at record clicked on her, it says Maiden Name Rosietzky)

Lois, all I have is the indexed version of Max Bloom's death record, and it is already linked in his profile (though way at the bottom, after a lot of GEDCOM comments). I could obtain the original if it seemed useful, though it would cost money and in this case I don't expect it to have anything more than the indexed version.

Thanks. Totally missed it. Moved it up, so it would be less likely to be missed.

What is the latest obit from the known children of Jacob Yehuda Rosenberg that mentions Max in Chicago as a surviving brother? (Or do they list all brothers, not just those surviving?) If we can put a lower bound on that Max's death date, that might be useful.

Was definitely looking for that. It may come down to counting grandchildren and greatgrand.

1907 - in obit for Toba, survived by 7 sons. This version lists them all, where they live, David is oldest, his age is 81, that she has 42 grandchildren, 36 great grandchildren, etc. https://www.newspapers.com/clip/87274664/mrs-toby-rosenberg-death-1...

--in Simon's 1919 obit, he is survived by 6 brothers - named, with locations
--in Meyer's 1920 obit, he is survived by 5 brothers - named, with locations
--in Harris' 1924 obit, Harris is survived by 3 brothers - one in Chicago, one in New York. And Isaac N. Rosenberg of Burlington. -- David died in 1923, which explains jumping from 5 to 3. Only Isaac is named here.
--in Isaac's 1936 obit, no siblings are mentioned

In Simon's obit, he is survived by 2 daughters - and that is all Geni shows him ever having, and both born before 1907

in Meyer's 1920 obit, he is survived by 5 sons and 4 daughters -- on Geni he has 9 children, at least 8 born before 1907

In Harris' 1924 obit, he is survived by 2 daughters and 4 sons -- on Geni, I have added the missing one

In Isaac's 1936 obit, he is survived by 4 sons and 1 daughter -- Geni shows only these 5, all born before 1907

>>
So - these 4 children account for 22 grandchildren that we know of. No idea if 42 is an accurate count
>>

OK, so at minimum we know their sibling Max was alive in 1924. And maybe not in 1936, but we can't be sure of that. So we certainly can't rule out Max Bloom, who died in 1925.

That, so far, is exactly where we seem to stand.

Looks like one can get a copy of Max's Death Cert. free from a Family History Center - I am hoping the little Family History Center about a half mile from my home opens back up eventually. Probably will not help, but will try to remember to look for Max's Death Cert.

So today, spent 40-plus. minutes and $17 to get a copy of the actual Death Record for Max Bloom. Have uploaded it to his Documents in his Media Tab.
Note his father is explicitly "Jacob Bloom" not Jacob with no surname explicitly given, and to me the way his mother's maiden name is written, definitely looks like first name, surname, not two given names with no surname given -- no dash or anything indicating a missing or unknown surname, lined up with her surname under / slightly to right of Jacob's

I wouldn't necessarily place a lot of weight on the apparent conflicts on the death certificate, as these are subject to the memories (under conditions of grief) of the informant.

While they don't help us connect Max to the Rosenberg/Rozaitsky family, I don't think they rule out the possibility, either. For now, I think the father's double-name Yaakov Yehuda (on max's gravestone), and the mention of a brother Max in Chicago in obits for Rosenberg family members, and whatever family lore led Max Bloom to be connected to this family initially provide enough circumstantial evidence to keep them connected for now. Obviously, if we could identify a different individual who was demonstrably Max Rosenberg/Rozaitsky in Chicago, that would change things.

That said, I'm curious to know why Max (unlike the rest of the family, apparently) used Blum/Bloom for so long, including in Europe; he sailed under the surname Blum. Was it one of those cases where to avoid conscription he was nominally adopted by a childless/sonless family? Where did the name come from?

Lisa - you refer to "whatever family lore led Max Bloom to be connected to this family initially" - do you have any knowledge that there was such lore?
I always assumed the connection was due to somebody noticing this was a Max in Chicago and his father's name was Jacob - with or without double name of father on gravestone and/or Tobey in mother's name on death certificate - and entering it as a possibility on a Tree - which then got copied as gospel.

We now have copies of the Death Records for all 6 sons listed currently on Geni with the surname Rosenberg
copies of the Vermont Death Records for sons Hirsche, Simon, and Isaac (as named on the Death Recirds)
copies of the New York City Death Records for Samuel and David
a copy of the Mass. Standard Certificate of Death for Meyer E.

Parents are listed there as:
On Simon died 1919 -- -- Jacob Rosenberg born Russia -- Tobey Fine born Russia
On Meyer died 1920 -- -- Jacob J born Russia -- Toibe Fine born Russia
On David died 1923 -- -- Jacob Rosenberg born Russia -- Tobe Rosietzky born Russia
On Hirsche died 1924 -- -- Jacob Rosenberg born Russia -- Tobiah Fine born Russia
On Samuel died 1933 -- -- Jacob born Russia -- Toby Rosenberg born Russia
On Isaac died 1936 -- -- Jacob born Russia -- Tobiah Fine born Russia

According to this article, https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-burlington-free-press-mrs-to... - published Tues, Jan. 9, 1906 -
"Mrs. Tobe Rosenberg celebrated the 102nd anniversary of her birth Sunday afternoon and evening" - so if true, birthday Jan. 7, 1804.

Also of note for this discussion is it says "She has one son, Max, who resides in Russia."
And the Arrival Manifest we have found for Max Bloom (under the name Mordche Blum).is for September 1906 -- between the article about her 102nd birthday, when she has a son Max in Russia and the ones about her death a year later, when she has a son Max in Chicago.

Dinah Ronit Berch -
you are the third great granddaughter of Simon Rosenberg (one of the sons of Jacob and Toba/Tobe/Toby (Fine) Rosenberg) and you had added a version of this family, including a version of Max back in 2012 (as Max (Rozaitsky) Bloom (Rosenberg) - as a sibling of Zarach)

Was this due to family knowledge or ??

Huh! - also - and a closer connection -
Dinah Berch is Jacob Rosenberg's third great granddaughter. - via his son Isaac.

Lois, you're right that I made an assumption that some family member had heard of a connection, but that I do not have proof of this. Perhaps Dinah or someone else connected to this branch of the family has some personal knowledge. The timeline you carefully documented for Toba's birthday - Max Bloom's arrival - Toba's obit does at least fit with/not falsify the hypothesis!