Using M269 to Locate Older Ancestries

Doyal Henry Stracener would like updates from this discussion group.

PS If that URL doesn't take you to the page, then you can try going to the project page: https://www.geni.com/projects/Rabbinical-Lineages-yDNA-and-Haplogro... then access the Photos and Documents page from the right menu. The document is yDNA Rabbinical and should be available there. If you are still unable to view the document, you may also try joining the project first.

Private User
I am greatly interested in this group. I have only recently begun this DNA journey but according to the FTDNA test I am in the R-M269 group. Please instruct what else needs to be done.
Feel free to PM me here on geni.

Shalom,
Jonathan Trent Boyd

I am definitely interested in this group. I encouraged one of my brothers to test his Y-DNA earlier this year. I also had a distant male family member test to verify the Y were a match.

I am not sure yet how I can contribute to any discussion but I look forward to learning so at some point I can participate.

I was told my family surname which I traced back to the early 1800s was not our true surname, so my mission is to figure out what our name should be. It probably will turn out to be an impossible task I have embarked on, so here I am and thanks for the invite.

Regards,

Joan Wilson

Greetings Joan Pamela Whitely-Wilson To learn more about how this particular project works, take a look at the project page: https://www.geni.com/projects/Rabbinical-Lineages-yDNA-and-Haplogro.... Once you have a ydna haplogroup (and the more specific the better) you can then find who else is in that same group and work from there.

Hello Adam, correct me if I am wrong, simply being part of the very large haplogroup M269 is not necessarily going to tie anyone to any particular person but it may be useful if one has documented descent from a rabbinical family?

There will be lots and lots of people testing M269 but that is hardly an in depth haplogroup?

Shalom

Andrea

Andrea Milano You are quite correct. The rabbinical ydna database is but one place to look for matching. Most M269s will not find themselves matching a rabbinical lineage. Using ydna haplogroup info in this way requires self-knowledge of ones own M269 sub-group. Knowing merely M269 is not going to be enough, because as you say, M269 is a very early SNP mutation on the tree and includes a vast number of ydna cousins, many dating to pre-historic eras.

Hello again, Adam, happy new year,

I thought it was good to clarify since I read many subscribers here to expect they have such possibility that they belong to a Rabbinical family (or at the very least that they have Jewish ancestry) if they test M-269 at a relatively low level of Y-37.

Just to be extra clear this mutation originated 4,000 to 10,000 years ago and is carried by at least 110million men.

Under these circumstances it will be common to many different ethnic groups.

In my family we have oral history of being Jewish and “ Spanish”.
I tested earlier on this wide-ranging haplogroup, but then ordered a Y-700.
First of all the number of my Y matches was really small and it stayed more or less the same testing in depth. As it is my Haplogroup is R-BY72268 which few matches show a slight predominance of Armenian origin.

According to some experts my Y chromosome doesn’t show many possibility of being of Jewish descent but the thing can be explained in many ways.

Adoption, Illegitimate Birth where the father was not the father that gave the surname or that the family married into some Jewish family and by way of mother the offspring were Jewish although genetically the father was not. Conversion... .

So there are many ways one can be Jewish, even according to de Halacha, but not test within a recognizable “ Jewish” haplogroup.

Curiously by way of mother I have quite a few MtDNA matches in several Jewish projects (but not others) such as the Mountain Jews and Mizrahi.

What I mean to say is that, the way I understand this, if one belongs to a Rabbinical family by a written genealogy and then someone tests a match of THAT particular person then it may be assumed that one is related to a Rabbinical blood line.

Shalom ( and although it applies to Rosh Ha Shanna the religious new year , Shanà Tovà, Goood New Year!)

Andrea

Andrea Milano A happy new year to you as well. This long post is going to be of interest only to persons in the Z2103 branch of M269. I am myself interested in this because of a branch in my own tree (detail below).

Your micro-group (BY77268) is part of the larger Z2103 branch. My guess is that Z2103 originated in the Pontic Steppe or South Central Asia (I believe the oldest known Z2103 samples are from Samara and Afanasievo, is that your understanding?), This is an interesting branch. A maternal grand uncle of mine, with ancestry fully in coastal Eastern Sicily, is on the Z2103>M12149>Z2109 branch (oldest ancient samples: Afanasievo, Karagash). There is a rabbinical lineage in the Index on the Z2103>M12149>Y4362 branch (oldest ancient samples: Afanasievo). There is an ancient sample dating about 1000 BCE from Kapan (modern day Armenia) on the Z2103>Z2106>CTS7763 branch. Your branch of Z2103>PF331>BY77268 is a big mystery. There isn't as far as I know a single ancient sample yet reported in your branch.

My guess is that the Z2103 tree involves a migration from either Samara or Afanasievo (perhaps from Samara to Afanasievo) and then into the Iranian plateau (through the Caucasus if from Samara or via the route south of the Caspian Sea if from Afanasievo), from the Iranian Plateau then into Anatolia and the Levant, and from there into the Carpathian Basin from Anatolia and into the coastal Eastern Mediterranean from the Levant and Anatolia. It seems reasonable at this stage to presume the rabbinical lineage derives from a Z2103 migration into the Levant whereupon the line became part of a Canaanite tribe which eventually became Hebraic and then Judaic. Your branch may have been part of the Z2103 migration into the Carpathian Basin or coastal Mediterranean (depending on where you trace your patriline to in recent times). My grand uncle's branch arrived to its current region via a Z2103 coastal migration. The Kapan sample was part of the Z2103 Iranian Plateau migration.

Of related interest is the research indicating a similar migration pattern for a branch of R-M420>Z2121. This is within the R1a tree, not the R1b tree of M269. In the Z2121 branch can be found several Judaic branches including possibly the lineage of King David (the Davidic connection is highly speculative, but there is evidence pointing in that direction). Genetically R1a and R1b are quite distant in terms of common ancestry, but migrations inferred from ancient sample locations suggest that certain branches of R1a and R1b followed similar paths and could be considered subsequent waves within the same historical process (I am guessing R1b was a slightly earlier wave). I believe there is still much to be discovered about this set of R1a and R1b branches.

As for mtDNA I am somewhat confused by my own classification of H* (no sub-branch of H but the basal H!). It seems odd to me that so many thousands of years could have elapsed since the basal H emerged and that my classification is still in that extremely ancient group. I know that the H tree is well developed with lots of sub-branches, but I am not in any of these. Could it mean that my mtDNA lineage is unique to me in all the existing databases? Anyhow, the lack of sub-branch specificity makes it difficult to speculate on the phylogeography of my mtDNA line. I must await further info to make progress.

Be Well,
Adam
NY, NY

Hello Adam,
thank you for you interesting explanation and illustration. I am very interested by your comments showing that I may indeed have (as I postulated at some point) descending from a family which may have been of Mizrahi or Mountain Jews origin. This is early days and the lack of matches may indicate either that some modern people have never tested or that ancient DNA ha never been found.

If the migration which you describe is indeed coherent with my family history it may very well be that it started some 750 to 1000 years ago ( according to Hovan Simonian a geneticist involved in several projects) in Armenia and then an ancestor arrived to Italy, somehow and from there we may have spread to Spain too (there was a Rabbi Juçe Milano ).

But we certainly need more matches to confirm oral or written history.

Among my many Jewish friends there are resistances to being tested, I would very much like to test some of the very few Milano still Jewish to ascertain whether we are related or not but to date this has not proven successful.

I remain very interested and wish you and all of us much luck along with good health and prosperity!

Andrea

Perhaps I should add that my very few matches on FTDNA (15) are ONLY at level 12 Markers level, and even then I have only 2 matches at 0 distance (exact match) the rest is all at 1 distance making these matcher rather remote or unsafe .

I don’t have any Y chromosome matches on Geni. The Maternal matches on Geni are also remote but there is a strannge predominance of Finnish names.

I think it is relly too early a day to draw conclusions from any and all of this. Unfortunately most Italians don’t test, they aren’t really interested to know wheere they come from , they (think) they know it!