Rabbi Zacharia HaNavi and Rabbi Ysroel Lipkin Salanter Project

Source for Rav Dob Ber's father being Rav Sheftel is from ספר הלכות גדולות : על פי מהדורת ויניציה ש״ח ושאר דפוסים וכתבי־יד

https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=36jXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1...

Private User The y111 analysis can probably tell us whether further testing will or will not be necessary. For example, if the genetic distance at y111 supports the possibility of Ilya and Mark being in FT96541 or one of the nearby SNPs currently in the FT96541 block, then we would want to proceed with a BY700 to see whether the y111 analysis holds water. If the y111 analysis shows a very large genetic distance then there would be no need for further testing. The fact that Ilya and Mark do match with a generic distance of 4 or fewer at y37, supports the possibility of a y111 genetic distance of 11-15 (which would be more or less the range justifying further testing). The nice thing about the ydna strategy is that it works independently of tree genealogy so that even with the current ambiguities, we can still arrive at a reasonable estimate of when the common ydna ancestor lived, which can then be used in conjunction with further tree research to locate the person within a generation or two.

Private User If you feel that the R' Sheftiel source is credible enough then why not add that generation to the GENI tree (along with the source URL in the 'About' section)?

Private User thanks, I added Sheftel.

Private User could the Y-111 analysis alone conclude whether there is a MRCA ~1550?

Private User The y111 analysis is one type of evidence. The way to approach this research is to ask: does the evidence prove the null hypothesis, i.e., does the evidence prove that the MRCA could not possibly (or is very unlikely to) have been circa 1550? If the null hypothesis is not proved then that would justify continuing the research (but would not of itself prove an MRCA of circa 1550). The BY700 could then provide additional evidence with which to further evaluate the null hypothesis. What we are doing in genetic genealogy is statistical analysis, which is a powerful tool, mainly for excluding possibilities, but statistical findings should never be the only evidence being sought. I believe statistical analysis should be the first step in justifying more time-consuming types of research. The aim is to make an informed decision and avoid giving up too soon. Ideally a conclusion should not be reached without considering all the reasonably available evidence.

Private User understood. Thank you.

Private User Returning to the father of Dov Ber Lipkin and the document from the book I have a couple of questions: 1) does ABD Plungian refer to Sheftel or Dov Ber? It seems that it may be Dov Ber, or both, maybe? 2) there appears to be another branch described in the document which is not on GENI: Ysroel Lipkin > Aryeh Leyb Lipkin > Borukh Lipkin > Aryeh Leyb Lipkin; if you agree I will add these two generations from Aryeh ben Ysroel to the tree, unless you do.

PS: And one more question: 1) document does not mention שמואל Shmuel between Dov Ber and Ysroel: are you sure there is a Samuel there?

Private User

1) ABD Plunge refers to Dov Ber alone. I do not see anywhere in the book it being associated with Sheftel.

2) I am not sure about this lineage. A brief look at Frumkin (https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46866&st=&pgnum=10) does not seem to corroborate it.

3) I think the book I sent eariler today on google books may be mistaken (which perhaps questions its reliability re Sheftel). Frumkin, which seems to be the most reliable source, says that Dov Ber had one son called Shmuel. So all of the known descendants of Rav Dov Ber descend from Rav Shmuel, I believe.

Private User In relation to your question yesterday about the confusion regarding the Zachariah lineage, I realized that I've been waiting for someone to fix this area for about two years now so I finally decided to take a few hours to untangle the knot for myself. Here is my post about that:
Yuta Klausner (dau. rabbi Chaim Loew), Maharal niece

PS: The post is in a Discussion there.

Private User

I just noticed that the maiden name of Rabbi Zecharya Mendel Klausner, of Krakow/ The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman's wife was LIFSHITZ. This sounds pretty similar to LIPKIN.

Could it be that one of the sons took on the name of the mother, and his descendant was Rabbi Dov Ber Lipkin?

I would be careful about conflating Lifshitz with Lipkin. It could be well worthwhile to review the 3rd Edition of Unbroken Chain for new information about these branches. The information on GENI may reflect earlier versions of the book.

Private User I will have a look at the online indexes now.

Private User it does not look like Rabbi Dov Ber Lipkin or his descendants are in the 3rd edition of the Unbroken Chain.

The only other place I can think of where this information would have already found is perhaps with some religious scholars of the Musar movement (as this is Salanter's lineage).

Private User I noticed something strange in the book.

For some reason it calls Rabbi Dov Ber "David Ber". This could be a typo, or suggest further that it is not the most reliable of sources..

https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=36jXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1...

Private User My understanding that Dov and Dovid and David are all essentially the same name. Sometimes the combination is seen as Duber. Is this correct?

Private User I am not sure this is correct. Dov means bear, and is spelt with a ב at the end.

David is spelt דוד.

It could be that he was called David DovBer (two names), but I do not see any evidence for this. In the Knesset Yehezkel book, he is referred to as "Rabbi Dov Ber of Plunge and the county".

What I might do is contact YIVO to see if they have any Rabbinic records for 17th century Plunge. It is unlikely they will but who knows.

Private User

This online tree also says Dov Ber's father was Rav Sheftel

https://www.amitys.com/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I33701&ged=G...

Shavua tov,

Yoav

Aha! I think I have finally found the source for the info on Sheftel.

Looks like the author of a book ILANA DE'CHAYEE once saw a pair of silver Torah appurtenances with the inscription "donation of the Rabbi Gaon of Plungian, Rabbi DovBer son of Rabbi Sheftil.

See: https://www.werbel.net/histories/

Will try and locate the original book

Private User, it may be worth contacting this site to see what they think about the potential Zecherya connection.

https://werbel.net/suggest.php?

This is the original source: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=44200&st=&pgn...=

Private User I reviewed the Ilana De Chayes document. At the end is described various early Lipkin genealogies which I don't think can be resolved as of this moment. There is a discrepancy as to the number of generations between Dov Ber of Plungian and Zev Vulf Lipkin.

There is one statrment in the document that I am having trouble parsing with regard to the connection between R' Eliahu Rogoler and R' Yakov of Boisk ben R' Shmuel Chassid.

Son of the great Rabbi Boruch Noted in one of Rabbi Ferber's books that Rabbi Zev Wolf AB"D of Telsiai was the son of Rabbi Arye the son of the great Rabbi Boruch the son of the great Rabbi Leib the grandson of the great Gaon in his time Rabbi DovBer AB"D of Plungian and district (who is mentioned in Shu"t Knesses Yecheskel #7) the grandfather of the great and pious Rabbi Eliyohu ROGOLER AB"D of Kalisch the son of the Gaon Rabbi Ya'akov of Neustadt and the Gaon Rabbi Ya'akov of Boisk and grandson of the holy Gaon Rabbi Shmuel Chossid of Rassein.

From what I gather both from GENI and this blurb, R' Rogoler was the son of Yakov of Neustadt, whose spouse Rivka Neushtadter was the granddaughter of the same Zev Vulf who is R' Shmuel Chassid Bendet's father in law. So, R' Eliahu Rogoler is also a descendant of Dov Ber of Plungian. What i don't see is how R' Shmuel Chassid and his son Yakov of Boisk connect to R' Rogoler. This part of the tree is a bit jumbled in my mind and I am seeking clarification via the GENI tree.

Another related factoid in the De Chayes document is that "On p 179 of the book "History of the Jews in Kovno and Slabodka", is given the biography of Rabbi Eliyohu RAGOLER where, in a sidenote, it states that he was maternally descended from the Megale Amukos and Rabbi DovBer AB"D of Plungian." Now if R' Rogoler's maternal line descends from R'Zev Vulf Lipkin, then this could imply a Rabbi Nathan Spira, The Megaleh Amukos ancestry for Dov Ber, among other possibilities.

I invite Private User who may wish to comment.

My guess is that contacting werbel.net might be a good idea for the sake of collaboration, but I tend to think that everything known by De Chayes is in the document.

Private User thanks for these points.

1. Rabbi Shmuel Chassid is my ancestor. His great grandfather was Pokdover. I've researched him quite a bit.

Rabbi Shmuel Chassid is NOT a BLOOD relative of Rabbi Eliyahu Rogaler. Shmuel is connected to Dov Ber in-law via his wife, Slova. Rogaler is a blood descendant of Dov Ber. So that's the connection, I think.

2. Rabbi Ya'akov Bendetman and Rabbi Eliyahu Rogaler are blood relatives. They have a common ancestor in Rabbi Dov Ber.

3. You raise a very good point re the Megaleh Amukot. However, it could be through David From Raisin rather than his wife, who is the Lipkin.

Private User Thanks for the help with the Bendet tree. Am I reading things correctly to say that Zev Vulf Lipkin is the father of both Slova, spouse of Shmuel Chassid, and of an unnamed daughter who is the spouse of David Raisener and mother of Rivke Neustadter, mother of R' Eliahu Rogoler?

A couple of points regarding the Lipkin tree:

I found it also interesting to note that Zev Vulf was the first to use the Lipkin surname, raising the question as to why that surname was chosen at that time? I believe that it could be explained as being derived from his father's name of Aryeh (i.e. Leib).

I wonder if we might use this time to reconcile the GENI Lipkin tree with what Ferber and Dessler have to say (via De Chayes) with the Raseiniai Book, the Rabbinical Lineage Book, and GENI. I have combined the data into a Dov Ber Lipkin 'Plungianer' tree as described here: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AuwT-4qnkJLBlltRniuyb-cJDTSC?e=LC81f8. This tree seems to combine all the data gathered so far into a coherent and feasible tree. Please, if so inclined, take a look, and let me know of major issues. The naming convention of Plungianer for the generations prior to Zev Vulf Lipkin and the branch beginning with Shmuel ben Dov Ber is something I'm doing on my home version of the tree and which might be something useful for the GENI tree as well. This distinction helps avoid any confusion between the Zev Vulf Lipkin who is father-in-law to Ysroel Salanter, and the Zev Vulf (who I dub 'Plungianer') who is the father in law of R' Shmuel Chassid Bendet and R' David 'Raisener'), both of who descend from Dov Ber of Plunge, along different lines. Since I am not a descendant of these trees I won't make any changes to GENI, but I welcome those who are involved to make any changes deemed helpful based on this descent report.

Private User

Yes, you have understood the Bendet tree absolutely correctly.

The tree you have made is excellent. It could be that Shmuel and Yisrael are the same person and their names were mixed up by different scholars. Frumkin says that DOV BER's son was SHMUEL, whose son was YISRAEL, whose grandson was ZE'EV AB"D TELZ, the father of Rabbi YISRAEL SALANTER. See: https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46866&st=&pgnum=10

Another point you may want to add is that Rabbi Ze'ev Wolf, father-in-law of Rabbi Shmuel Chassid, is said to have been related to the Shlah HaKadosh. The source for this information is the will of Yitzchak Ben-Tovim, which says the following:

ואבי זקני רבי שמואל מיום הולדו חכמתו האירה פניו ונבאו לו עתידות גדולות, כמה שהיו באמת בהגדלו. עודנו נער קטן היה כבר מתמיד ושוקד גדול בלמודו וכל רואיו התפלאו על חשקו העז בתורה. ובהגיעו לארבעה עשר שנה השיאו אביו אשה, כנהוג בימים ההם, בת איש נכבד ונשוא פנים רבי זאב וואלף ז"ל ממשפחת השל"ה הקדוש זי"ע

As I have previously mentioned, the exact connection may be solved via the connection to Rabbi Zecharya Mendel Klausner, of Krakow whose wife Sirka nee Lifshitz was a relative of the Shlah HaKadosh.

Hopefully the genetic analysis this week will help shed light on this.

Private User I am not an expert on comparative genealogies, so I merely point out that neither the Ferber or Dessler (via Sidersky) mention a Shmuel in the Salanter line. These are both direct descendant genealogists.

I have added a note about Frumkin and both your important clues (Shelah and ZM Klausner) to the descent chart notes and re-loaded it to the server (so will appear on future views).

Private User thank you very much.

I've contacted Israel's National Library who have an archive of N Lidkski. Lidski's collection is supposed to have a pair of tikei kesef that say "donated by Rabbi Dov Ber of Plunge son of Sheftel". It is unlikely they will have it, but worth a shot.

BTW -- if Sheftel was born ~1630, ZM Klausner could be his grandfather, or maybe even father.

Private User potentially important info . . .

The Klausners are blood relative of the Megalah Amukot, which would make sense regarding what we read about Eliyahu Ragoler earlier today.

My interpretation of "MiGez'a" is that they have his blood in them, not necessarily that they are direct descendants. But I could be wrong.

See: https://www.geni.com/path/Rabbi-Nosson-Notta-Shpiro-The-Megaleh-Amu...