Elizabeth van Axel Van den Ackere, Dame d’Exarde - Who is her mother?

According to Ernest Warlop, it is Beatrijs van Maldeghem: according to MedLands and Goethals, it's Isabelle Vilain. But Goethals doesn't mention his primary sources.

Does Ernest Warlop have a primary source?

He spent all his life collecting primary sources.
You can contact Gent university about this.
mailto:libservice@ugent.be
The original documents of the van Axel-Van Maldegem marriage are likely to be found in the city hall of Maldegem. I have been there some 20 years ago. MedLands is really not beyond scepticism.

Medlands is not being held up as beyond scepticidm. Medlands is a collection of primary doc quotes - it's not intending to be anything else.

Unless somebody produces Warlop's sources, Medlands' use of Goethals is all we have to go on.

Ask Gent why not?

I wondered why you weren't.

I've uploaded Mr. Warlop's sigla and sources to the project file. Unfortunately, I cannot just copy and paste here because his sources comprise 17 pages!

https://www.geni.com/projects/HEREN-van-GAVRE-GAVERE/4486921

Great. Still need the particular primary source that was used to validate Beatrice as the mother, and what it says.

I presume that’s a rhetorical statement.

My upload of the Simla and Sources for Warlop did not indicate an interest in further collaboration. Since I have a personal copy of Mr. Warlops work I share that as requested by others on Geni and am happy to do so, however “Still need the particular primary source that was used to validate Beatrice as the mother, and what it says” is research you will have to do on your own, you now have the list of sources you requested.

I can say that both Warlop and Cawley use the same source here, that of La Comtesse de Lalaing (aka Gravin Marie Henrietta Octavia Gishlaine van Maldeghem), this source is available online in both French and Dutch, but since I coincidentally also have a copy of the historically expanded Dutch version of this source, I can offer the following:

4° Béatrix de Maldeghem, fil le ainée de Didier et d'Elisabeth, épousa Jean, chevalier, seigneur d’Axelles, fils de Gauthier, seigneur du dit lieu, qui fut petit-fils de Thiéri et d'Ide de Gavre. Elle était déjà morte en 1228, et Francon lui fonda un obit à St-Donat.

…4° Béatrix de Maldeghem, eldest son of Didier and Elisabeth, married Jean, knight, lord of Axelles, son of Gauthier, lord of the said place, who was grandson of Thiéri and Ide de Gavre. She had already died in 1228, and Francon founded an obit for her in 1238.

De Lalaing, Marie Henriette Octavie Ghislaine van Maldeghem, La Loyale: Memoires Et Archives Publiés Par Mme La De Lalaing. Ve Wouters, 1849, p. 234

Primary Documents cited
Charter of 1238
Archives of the Bijloke Abbey in Ghent
“F. Brugensis prepositus et Flandrie cancellarius, omnibus presentes litteras inspecturis in Domino salutem. Noverint universi quad dilectus nepos noster, dominus Willelmus, castellanus de Maldeghem, et dilecta soror nostra domina M. de Sinnebeke, qui nunc vivunt, et karissimus frater noster dominus Dirkinus de Maldeghem, ac dilecta soror nos­ tra domina B. de Axele bene memorie, dum viverent, omnes solemniter ad preces nostras benignum adhibuerunt assensum, ut decimas lini quas in parochiis de Maldeghem et de Somerghem jure hereditario possedimus, dilectis in Christo abbatisse et conventui de Portu Beate Marie Gandensis in elemosinam conferremus perpetuo pos­ sidendas, medietatem ad opus conventus et aliam medietatem ad sustentationem hos­ pita/is juxta idem monasterium constituti" ". Et sic habito predictorum omnium heredum nostrorum assensu, tandem predictas decimas in manus venerabilis Patris Domini W" Tornacensis episcopi, solemniter contulimus, in sustentationem predictarum monialium et hospita/is prefati perpetuo convertendas. Datum anno Domini M.CC.XXX octavo, mense augusto.”

…F(ranco), provost of Bruges and chancellor of Flanders, to all who will look into this charter our greeting in the Lord. It is known to all that our nephew William, lord of Maldegem, and our beloved sister M. van Zonnebeke, both living, and our dear brother Dirkin van Maldehem and our beloved sister B. Van Axel in good memory, when they were still alive, have all solemnly agreed to our urging to donate the properties we possess by right of inheritance in the parishes of Maldegem and Zomergem, to our in Christ's name beloved abbess and to the convent Haven van Maria en Gent as alms and as permanent property, one half for the benefit of the convent and the other half for the maintenance of the (Bijloke) hospital next to the convent . ". All the foregoing thus accepted by our relatives, we have solemnly given the aforesaid tithes, which are to be converted for ever to the maintenance of the aforesaid monials and of the aforesaid hospital, into the hands of the venerable father and lord W., bishop of Tournai. Given in the month of August in the year 1238.

De Lalaing, Marie Henriette Octavie Ghislaine van Maldeghem, La Loyale: Memoires Et Archives Publiés Par Mme La De Lalaing. Ve Wouters, 1849, p. 366/367.

For Aksel, Warlop, 611 shows…
John van Aksel cited in 1218 in the Cartulaire de Saint Bavon à Gand, Ghent (1836-1840) no. 128, pg . 102 as a witness to charter 1218 under the name of Johannes de Acsla. The date 1836-1840 referres to the date of translation of the original by Constant Philippe Serrure.  https://lib.ugent.be/catalog/rug01:000710091
He is cited as having died before 1239/1240, March (Maldeghem la Loyale, p. 368)
x B(eatrice) of Maldeghem (Maldeghem la Loyale, pp. 234, 366-368)
Children-
- Oliver II (ibidem, p. 368 (1239/40, March)).
- Catherine (Walters : Bijloke, III, no. 151, p. 737 (1255, May)).

For Oliver this refers to charter of 1239 in the Archives of the Bijloke Abbey in Ghent
“Universis Christi fidelibus, ad quad presens scriptum pervenerit, Franco, prepositus Brugensis, Flandrie cancellarius, salutem in Domino. Scire volumus universitatem ves­ tram, quad cum abbas et conventus de Dunis ex una parte, et Oliverius nepos noster, filius bone memorie domini Joannis de Axla, …”

…To all the faithful of Christ, when the present document has come to the fore, Franco, provost of Bruges, chancellor of Flanders, greetings in the Lord. We want to know the entirety of the tram, with the abbot and convent of Downes on one side, and our nephew Oliver, the son in good memory of Sir John of Axla,…

For Catherine the charter of 1255 is not included but you have the reference to Walters as the source. This raises a question however requiring further research. It was typical of the time and place to name the first daughter after her grandmother, which supports the name Elizabeth. But surely, this was known by Warlop and we can therefore presume that his reference to Catherine is supported by the charter he references. It would not be the first time in medieval history that these two names were confounded.

Finally, where does Isabelle Vilain dite van der Moere fit? Warlop does not identify such a person in chapter 89 Ghent. Vilain van der Moere seems to be a very old branch of the Vilain family who’s progenitor was Walter Villain, Lord of Sint-Jans-Steen x Azevote daughter of Alexander ser Brames. The family Brames were not Nobel (therefore not included in Warlop), although they may have been in the local political hierarchy, and were considered of the wealthy class, so perhaps Patricians of Gent.

Walter Villain is shown in Warlop, 836, which shows this Walter and Azevote had as their 2nd son Alexander, his wife and children are not mentioned, but his source as a child might include mention of wife and children, see (Cambron, I, pp. 453-455 (1271. (n.s.), January 6)).

I also find this…however I know nothing of this source except that it too references Goethals.

Jean de Gavre était fils de Rasse, Baron de Gavre, et de Claire de Herzelles, Dame d'Exaerde et d'autres lieux. Il avait épousé 1° Isabeau Vilain-dite-van der Moere, morte en 1274, et 2° Catherine d'Axel, et mourut en 1288. Sa veuve convola avec Robert sire de Steelant et décéda le 1er avril 1320 (2). Ces détails sont tirés du Dictionnaire de M. Goethals”. ( (2) Note that this refers to M. Goethals, not F. V. Goethals, maybe Messier?)
Blason no 39. De gueules, à trois lions d'or.

…Jean de Gavre was the son of Rasse, Baron of Gavre, and Claire de Herzelles, Lady of Exaerde and other places. He married 1° Isabeau Vilain-dite-van der Moere, who died in 1274, and 2° Catherine d'Axel, and died in 1288. His widow (who is this-unnamed 3rd wife?) married Robert, sire de Steelant and died on 1 April 1320.

van der Vynckt, d‘Emmaneul-Marie-Jean. Les Anciennes Magistratures Du Pays De Waes Et Leurs Titulaires. St. Nicolas, 1867. p. 97.

If this is correct, it appears, in response to your original question, Catherine ou Elisabeth van Axele was 1st (only) daughter 2nd child of Jan van Axele and Beatrice van Maldeghem and married as his second wife Jean van Gavre, who’s first wife was Isabelle Villain van der Moere who died 1274. Therefore Elisabeth’s mother is Beatrice van Maldeghem since Jan was never married to Isabelle Villain and no sources show that he had a second wife (yet to be resolved however is whether her name was Elisabeth or Catherine).

Since this is based on a single source I’ve not used before I would recommend at least one additional source. You might try this, an academic study on Persee identifies Azevote as wife of William Villain and daughter of Alexander ser Brames… there are footnote references to primary documents that could be of use.

Two Patricians :
A classic and a defection.
https://www.persee.fr/doc/rbph_0035-0818_1937_num_16_3_1220

Why would it be rhetorical?
A list of all the resources Warlop consulted for his research for his book, including all the abbreviations for words he used, is in no way an answer to the question.
Noone is asking you to collaborate - you Curate one of the profiles.