Catharina Elisabet Jordan - The mystery of Catherina Elisabet Von Jordan

Christina Giscombe PRO

6/7/2022 at 2:53 PM

She exists for sure. However, records show her christening date as Nov 1671 - birth date could be up three years earlier.

Records also show she married Christian Berg 1709. Records from that parish, Marttila show she died 1762 and states, age 72.

Therefore, when she married she would have been 20 and thus her birthday must be circa 1685, not 1671. This seems to suggest a generation has been skipped...?

Her children's birthdates would not make sense for a 1671 birth (as her first born would have been at age 51, which seems highly unlikely). In addition, she is noted as having been engaged to the vicar of Rauma, who was fifty and she would have been 15. Unsurprisingly, the betrothal was dissolved in 1685, if the interpretation is correct. However, in other records, this vicar, Barhold Rajalenius, seems to have been well-respected. Was she engaged to this vicar, or was he merely the clergyman who dissolved the engagement?

This makes me wonder if the Catherina Elisabet born 1685-ish - who is shown in records as having died in 1862 aged 73 - was the product of that scandalous betrothal? Or was there a Catherine Elisabet born 1671, died young, and then a later child was given the same name, as often happened, then.

Can anyone make sense of this?

Alex Moes C

6/7/2022 at 6:36 PM

Hi Christina,

The answer is simple, two women with the same name that family tree builders have conflated and the mistake has been perpetuated across the internet.

The record of the death of Katharina Elisabet von Jordan https://hiski.genealogia.fi/hiski/knuos?fi+0321+haudatut+1936 lists her age in 1762 as 73 making her DOB 1689. Perhaps it was really 1688 or 1690, but certainly not 1671.

How the two women are/might be related would take a lot of research and might never be resolved.

My suggestion would be to disconnect this woman from the parents currently listed and attach a new profile to those parents as per the baptismal data but leaving this woman with no known ancestors.

Alex Moes C

6/7/2022 at 6:46 PM

As for the engagement that was dissolved in 1685, I can only see one sentence in her profile that refers to this but gives no specifics, an additional possibility is that it refers to an entirely different woman not connected to either the 1671 baptism nor 1762 burial.

Christina Giscombe PRO

6/12/2022 at 4:56 AM

Alex, No, that would not be correct, because if you look at the digital (confirmed records) it clearly shows her parent to be Magnus Von Jordan and Catherina Enoskjold. There was only one noble family in Finland called Von Jordan, so please do not disconnect her on a whim.

Christina Giscombe PRO

6/12/2022 at 5:00 AM

Alex, Also, if you look on the media page, it shows the runeberg project early document of this vicar 1685 and shows a first birth who was the first born of Magnus and wife.

Alex Moes C

6/12/2022 at 7:45 AM

Hi Christina, what is a "...digital (confirmed records) ..."?

I have never suggested that Magnus & wife did not have a daughter named Catharina, this HISKI record of a baptism proves they did in 1671 but that does not prove that the woman who died AGED 73 in 1762

Magnus Mikaelsson Jordan (the father in the baptismal record) had six brothers and surely male cousins also there may only have been one Von Jordan family in Finland but it was not a small family.

The unattributed text you've uploaded here: https://www.geni.com/photo/view?album_type=photos_of_me&id=6000000018591074777&photo_id=6000000185425497909&position=0 doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, starts with a "?" , names her Kristina instead of Catharina , doesn't look to be sourced

I've just noticed also that none of the children (at least on the ones on Geni) of Christian and Catharina are named Magnus as you might expect if she is the daughter of Magnus.

Christina Giscombe PRO

6/12/2022 at 7:52 AM

Kristina/Christina is the next daughter. You can see the list on Adelsvapen 243 here, Tab 8.

https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Jordan_nr_243

Problem is, several textbooks also confirm this, as well as the details of the clergyman involved.

Christina Giscombe PRO

6/12/2022 at 7:58 AM

And Eneskjoild Tab 4, here: https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Eneskj%C3%B6ld_nr_585#TAB_4

Christina Giscombe PRO

6/12/2022 at 8:05 AM

From my notes:

"From: aa:paltta
Puolisot: ¤¤ 1) von Jordan, Catharina Elisabet s. marr. 1671 Nakkila, Leistilä, k. 17.04.1762 Marttila, Huovariston Berg, rintakipu, haudattu Marttila, emäkirkon kuorin alle. (Aatelinen, sukunro 243, 21). Vihitty 23.03.1709 Mietoinen. Kastettu 20.11.1671.
Syntymä- ja kuolinaika Carpelanin kirjan "Ättartavlor" mukaan. (Jouni Tittosen mukaan syntynyt v. 1695 tai 1689, Verhon mukaan 1695.) Kastettu 20.11.1671. Kuoli 73-vuotiaana kirkonkirjojen mukaan. Sai lapset ollessaan 48, 49 ja 51? Aatelissukuinen.

Dp 20.11.1671, d. på Hovaristo i S:t Mårtens 17.4.1762 i bröstvärk. Gift i Mietois 23.3.1709 med majoren Christian Berg, f. i Viborg 1677, d. på Hovaristo 27.4.1755 i bröstvärk och ålderdomssvaghet. (Carpelan)
Dp 20.11.1671, d. at Hovaristo in St. Mårtens 17.4.1762 in chest pain. Married in Mietois 23.3.1709 to Major Christian Berg, b. in Vyborg 1677, d. at Hovaristo 27.4.1755 in chest pain and old age weakness. (Carpelan)

Kosken Tl historian mukaan "Nyhässä asunut kornetti Christian Bergin rouva ehti ennen venäläisten tuloa lähteä pakoon" (venäläiset olivat marssineet 28.8.1713 Turkuun ja ryöstelivät viikon verran lähipitäjiä ja palasivat sitten Helsinkiin).
Isä: von Jordan, Magnus k. Ulvila, Villilä, haudattu 05.12.1697 Ulvila. Luutnantti (aatelinen, sukunro 243, 21). << von Jordan Taulu 5 Äiti: von Eneskjöld, Catarina k. 1697 Ulvila, Villilä, haudattu 21.02.1697. (Aatelinen, sukunro 585, 48). 'Vihitty viim. 1671. << von Eneskjöld Taulu 5'
Date of birth and death, according to Carpelan's book "Ättartavlor." (Born according to Jouni Titonen in 1695 or 1689.) Died at the age of 73, according to church records. Nobleman. Dp 20.11.1671, d. på Hovaristo i S:t Mårtens 17.4.1762 i bröstvärk. Gift i Mietois 23.3.1709 med majoren Christian Berg, f. i Viborg 1677, d. på Hovaristo 27.4.1755 i bröstvärk och ålderdomssvaghet. (Carpelan) According to Kosken Tl history, "The lady of Christian Berg, the cornet who lived in Nyhä, was able to escape before the Russians arrived" (the Russians had marched to Turku on 28 August 1713 and looted for a week's worth of close friends and then returned to Helsinki). --- From: aa:paltta Spouses: (1) von Jordan, Catharina Elisabet s. marr. 1671 Nakkila, Leistilä, d. 17.04.1762 Marttila, Huovariston Berg, chest pain, buried under the bark of Marttila, under the shell of the mother church. (Noble, genus No. 243, 21). Married 23.03.1709 Mietoinen. Baptized 20.11.1671. Date of birth and death, according to Carpelan's book "Ättartavlor." (Born according to Jouni Titonen in 1695 or 1689, according to Verho 1695.) Baptized 20.11.1671. Died at the age of 73, according to church records. Nobleman.

Catarina Elisabet von Jordan, the daughter of Magnus and Catarina, secretly engaged to Barthold Rajalenius, the pastor of Rauma. Rajalenius had long and fiercely disputed the ownership of the islands of Aiko and Pihlaus with Lieutenant Mikael Everhard von Jordan, the brother of Magnus' brother. A contentious priest was not accepted into the family. Catarina was born in 1671. She was a minor and Rajalenius was alleged to have even used witchcraft to get Catarina engaged to her. The tragic engagement was dissolved by a decision of the Rauma Court of Appeal in 1685. (Timo Kause)"

Names in brackets, authors of various textbooks.

Alex Moes C

6/12/2022 at 8:07 AM

https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Jordan_nr_243 Tab 8 shows Magnus & wife having a daughter in 1671 but gives no other information.

https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Jordan_nr_243 Tab 8 does not support this book extract that you have uploaded

The problem with published works of genealogy is that someone makes a bad assumption and then other people copy it, just because something is published in a book does not make it accurate.

You asked in your first post if anyone could make sense of the discrepancy between the date of the baptism and the age at time of death, the answer is simple: two different women.

Alex Moes C

6/12/2022 at 8:09 AM

https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/Eneskj%C3%B6ld_nr_585#TAB_4 is Catharina (b1671) paternal grandfather I think, it doesn't mention Catharina Elisabet herself so why is it relevant?

Alex Moes C

6/12/2022 at 8:14 AM

Sorry, I don't have time to read your notes as it's almost midnight but I assume that they don't actually prove that the child born 1671 is the same as the 73 YEARS OLD woman that died in 1762 or you wouldn't have asked for other people's opinions.

The woman who died in 1762 wasn't even born at the time of the "tragic engagement".

Christina Giscombe PRO

6/14/2023 at 4:51 PM

Heads up

Some new information: Caterina Elisabet von Jordan's sister, Eva Juliana is the godmother of Caterina Elisabet's daughter, Caterina Juliana, b. 1712.

Anna Margrethe Finkenberg, wife of Captn. Armfelt is recorded as being a godmother at the christening of Catarina Juliana Berg 1712 – who incidentally is the same age as Eva Juliana, also a godparent. The parents of Catarina Juliana Berg b. 1712 were Christian Berg of Marttila Huovaristo and Catarina Elisabeth von Jordan. Eva Juliana Ryden is Caterina Elisabeth von Jordan's younger sister (b. 1680) and is documented as the godmother of Catherina Juliana.

This seems to prove the connection of the von Jordans of Pori (Ulvila, Nakkila, Leistila, Bjornborg) with Caterina Elisabeth von Jordan/Berg of Marttila.

https://astia.narc.fi/uusiastia/viewer/?fileId=5964053028&ainei...

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Catharina Elisabet Jordan - The mystery of Catherina Elisabet Von Jordan

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