Captain Kenneth Mackenzie, of Kerrisdale - A natural son of Sir Kenneth Mackenzie of Kerrysdale?

Started by Private User on Saturday, September 3, 2022
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Sir Kenneth had a 'servant' called James Fraser, as shown on the marriage records for James Fraser and Mary McKenzie (married on 29th July 1807 in Gairloch parish) and the baptismal records for their daughters Isobell (b. 1810) and Jean (b. 1812). A transcript of the marriage banns which I have seen lists Sir Kenneth as James Fraser's 'father'. I think that James Fraser worked as Sir Kenneth's 'farm grieve', although I can't source that fact.

I am interested in this question regarding the relationship between Sir Kenneth and James Fraser because I had a pair of great great great grandparents called James Fraser and Mary M(a)ckenzie of the same generation as the couple at Kerrysdale. That James Fraser was known to have been a farmer, but thought to have had roots in Kiltarlity. However, there is a family story about his daughter, my great great grandmother, known as Ann Fraser (b. circa 1810) being invited to visit the house of some local Mackenzie landowners (in the vicinity of Dingwall, where the Mackenzies of Gairloch also lived, at Conan Mains) in the 1850s after she was widowed, apparently in order to be given assistance as a family member of some sort. Hence, I wonder if her father could have been a natural son of Sir Kenneth.

She was - or so the story goes - shown a picture of her mother, who was referred to by a 'Francis' Mackenzie (described as a bachelor) as his 'aunt'. There was a Francis Harford Mackenzie of Kerrysdale who would have been about 20 at the time, who was the brother of Sir Kenneth Mackenzie, the 6th baronet of Gairloch, and the Mary Mckenzie at Kerrysdale would actually have been the wife of his first cousin once removed if James Fraser had been his great uncle's son.

Meanwhile, Sir Kenneth would still have been alive then and living at Kerrysdale until his death in 1860 at the age of about 95, so Francis might have been entrusted with this errand on his behalf at Conan Mains.

The famously inadequate state of the parish records for Kilmorack and Kiltarlity, and probably Gairloch too makes it difficult to be very sure, but the marriage record of 1807 seems to be the only one in Scotland for the time discoverable for a James Fraser and a Mary Mckenzie. On the other hand, there is no record of the baptism of my great great grandmother, Ann, to parents of those names although her approximate date of birth makes me wonder if she could not have been baptised 'Isobell' or 'Jean'.

It is amazing how we can convince ourselves of the truth of our own pet theories about our ancestry based on configurations of facts and circumstances such as those in the no-doubt plausible network laid out here, and I dare say there are some other awkward facts in the family history that would run athwart them. Still, it would be good to hear any corroborating evidence regarding the possibility of Sir Kenneth having had a natural son called James Fraser although it would remain to be seen if that was the same man as my ancestor.

Richard,

Captain Kenneth is my 4GGF. To my knowledge he wasn't a Sir.

I dont have any corroborating evidence to back up your claim. No disrepect to Kenneth or to the Mackenzie ancestors, but based on history of the males in the family, I would say, it is possible he could have been a natural son.

I noticed James and Mary at least had one son called "Kenneth" in 1817. Have you traced his line? It would make a good for a YDNa test if he had a male descendant alive today.

Baptism records are not always complete and given the known baptism dates 1810, 1812, 1817. Its possible a child or two are missing from at least the baptism records.

Are you willing to send a copy of the transcript of the marriage banns I'd would love to see it?

Have you done an AncestryDNA test?

Michael,
Thank you for your reply. I was kicking myself afterwards regarding the courtesy title 'Sir', which I realize is only really appropriate for a baronet. I also noticed the 'inconsistency' regarding the 'of Kerrysdale' designation. It seems that Kerrysdale House was traditionally where one of the baronet's younger brothers would have ended up, and so might not have been handed down directly.
I was aware of Sir Hector's several natural children, so the younger brother Captain Kenneth might well have followed suit.
Regarding the son Kenneth, born in 1817, I know that he was born in Gairloch parish, and I also saw that there was a Simon Fraser born to James Fraser and 'Margaret' Mckenzie, 'servants to Capt. Mckenzie', in 1808, suggesting that the names Margaret and Mary were in some sense interchangeable, in the session clerk's mind at least!
I have not yet ventured into the realms of DNA testing although it might well be a way to go, as you suggest.
I am perfectly willing to send you a copy of the transcript of the marriage banns, but I can't see a way of attaching it here. It is only a copy I made from information presented as a transcript (i.e. not a photocopy of an actual document) on the Find my Past website which I can try to reproduce here as follows:

Year Range 1781-1822
Record set Scotland, Parish Marriages & Banns 1561-1893
First name(s) James
Last name Fraser
Marriage year 1807
Occupation Servant
Spouse's first name Mary
Spouse's last name McKenzie
Residence Kerrysdale
County Ross and Cromarty
Country Scotland
Place Gairloch & Poolewe
Page 59
Father Name Captn Kenneth McKenzie
Marriage date 29 Jul 1807
Spouse Residence Slatadale
Spouse Father Name Dan McKenzie
Spouse Father Occupation Tenant
Witness -
Item 1
Archive Ref OPR 66/1
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from Great Britain, Scotland

Richard,

The territorial destination "of Kerrisdale" is acceptible. While he may well have been living "in" Kerrisdale he also owned the property which allows for the use of "of". Captain Kenneth was the one who had Kerrisdale house built.

Concerning Sir Hector in one of the Mackenzie facebook groups there was some discussion on other children not listed in the History of the MacKenzies. These allegedly happened before he got married.

When it comes to names I've noticed some names are interchangible such as
* Jean <--> Jane<--> Janet <--> Jess;
* Mary <--> Margaret;

The transcript seems to maybe to a poorly transcribed copy of the marriage parish record from ScotlandsPeople. The Archive Ref OPR 66/1 refers to the Parish Number

I say maybe poorly because the record does say
... James Fraser servant to Captain Kenneth.....

Most but not all of the other marriages on the page seems to list the males as - so and so ... son to ...

I don't why the minister listed his entries as such. It would be intersting to see how other marriage entries from previous and next few pages look. It may or not be a subtle way for the minister to convey a message.

DNA is interesting. If the story are true we would be 1/2 5th cousins or so. You and I having shared DNA are highly unlikely, but is slightly possible. I have paper trail matchs to Sir Hectors line via his illegitimate daughter who married a Muirson. Remember, Sir Hectors line are 1/2'ers.

The following will include DNA jargon, but in time if and when you take a DNA you'll eventually get your head around.

But they match at around 1/2 6th cousin level at low levels 7-9 cMs (unweighted at 15-19). But all come with shared matchs. One of those shared matchs is to Lady-A who is a great grand daughter of Captain Kenneth. Lady-A is a 1/2 3rd couin 3 times removed to one of the matchs; there matchs is significant becuase its equate to greated than 20 cMs. I don't know the exact number.

It would be good to know if Sir Hector actually did have any other natural daughters apart from the 3 listed in the History of the Mackenzies, and I would really like to know their names because the family story I mentioned seemed at first to relate to Mary Mackenzie rather than to James Fraser.

I noticed that the transcript seemed to differ from the other marriage records for the couple (which I also downloaded from Scotland's People) in so far as it was for 'Gairloch & Poolewe', as opposed to just 'Gairloch', and that it referred to banns, which the others didn't, and all three records appeared separately on Find my Past.

If James Fraser was Capt. Kenneth's son, then the fact that their surnames were different would have been a fairly strong sign that the son was not officially entitled to any of his father's patrimony. Nor was it unheard of for illegitimate children of gentry in the 18th century to be brought up in the household in an ostensibly inferior social position to that of any other children. However, James would have been born in the 1780s when Capt. Kenneth was just a lad, and a good 15 years or so before any of the recognized children were born.

I have taken your advice and ordered a DNA package from Ancestry.com, so I will no doubt soon be proficient in all the jargon too, and the cousin with whom I share an obsession with James and Mary will be glad I have done so. The difference between her and me is that she is more convinced than I am that we can trace ourselves back to Simon 'the Fox' Fraser, '11th' (or whath?) Lord Lovat, and has DNA 'results' that seem to bear it out.

Captain Kenneth Mackenzie, of Kerrisdale is my 18th cousin once removed.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
You
→ Elza Dzelvite (Grahpe,Grāpe)
your mother → Jahn Grahpe
her father → Baron Arnold Julius von Vietinghoff-Riesch
his father → Juliane Charlotte Lulla von Vietinghoff
his mother → Helene Gertrude von Krüdener
her mother → Gustav Georg von Völckersahm
her father → Sophia Elisabeth von Mengden
his mother → ObtLt., Frhr Magnus Gustav von Mengden, von Altenwoga
her father → Gustav v. Mengden Frhr. v. Altenwoga
his father → Gertrud von Mengden Frfr. von Altenwoga
his mother → Jürgen von Rosen
her father → Kersten von Rosen
his father → Kersten III von Rosen auf Hochenrosen
his father → Jürgen l von Rosen
his father → N.N. von Tiesenhausen
his mother → Bartholomeus von Tiesenhausen, of Kokenhausen
her father → Johann von Tiesenhausen
his father → Princess Sofia von Hoya, a Princess of Polotsk and Countess of Hoya
his mother → Bernardus von Hoya
her father → Richeza von Hoya
his sister → Christian III, Graf von Oldenburg
her son → Johann II Count von Oldenburg
his son → Konrad I, count of Oldenburg
his son → Christian V, Graf von Oldenburg
his son → Dietrich "The Lucky" of Oldenburg, Count
his son → Christian I King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden
his son → Margaret af Danmark og Norge von Oldenburg
his daughter → James IV, king of Scots
her son → James V, King of Scots
his son → Robert Stewart, 1st Earl of Orkney
his son → Mary Stewart
his daughter → Agnes Gray, Countess of Menteith
her daughter → Mary Graham
her daughter → Agnes Campbell
her daughter → Capt. James Menzies of Comrie
her son → Mary Menzies
his daughter → Jean Gorry
her daughter → Captain Kenneth Mackenzie, of Kerrisdale
her son

Richard,

Good luck in your DNA journey.

Simon "The Fox" Fraser. He had some Mackenzie blood in him.

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