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Mary Ann Tame - Phillips (Bird) - Historical Significance

Started by Private User on Tuesday, October 11, 2022
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  • Private User
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  • Private User
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  • Private User
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  • Terry John Francis
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  • Private User
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Hi Leanne Noticed you MPed this profile, could you tell me the significance of this profile ? other than it is 150 years old .

Thanking you for the information you may provide to explain

Hi Angelina

There is some dispute about her parentage with different branches of the family believing

Sources are currently being added to the profile.

Unknown source or date.

143. Robert William Thorp says that his Aboriginal ancestor was Mary Ann (Palawa) Bird who was born in about 1825 and married a George Phillips. Mr Thorp's parents were William Ansell-John Thorp and Vera Mary Cordwell. His grandparents were John Herbert Thorp and Mary Anne Rebecca Phillips. His great grandparents were Alfred Ernest George Phillips and Rebecca Mansfield. Alfred Ernest George Phillips was the son of Mary Ann Bird.

From What is a Master Profile?.

  • It is well documented "A Master Profile is the standard, most comprehensive and accurate profile"
  • Some info is disputed

Thank you both :-)

Hi Angelina, the following is a post from one of the members of a Mary Ann Bird Research group which I am an Admin of. many in our group agree that this is most likely close to the truth.
Personally, I am close to 100% sure Mary Ann is not full blood or half caste Aboriginal, of all the photos I have seen of Mary and her children/grandchildren, none show any Aboriginal traits that I can make out.
Dawn Gray Ryan
From an outsider looking in: Mary had 9 children with them all dying between the years 1908 - 1962. Why is there only one family branch that have heard of her Aboriginality. Obviously, Mary & George Phillips were close to the Latham branch as there are the photos that people have kindly shared - surely their branch would have also been taught about her life as well. Interesting observation (going on what has happened in another branch of my family), if Mary went to the Bird Family as a baby - who taught her about her culture? You would think it would have been lost. Why wasn't Edward Tame in his murder reports classed as a Half-Caste, (very common saying in those days) and what was he doing in a hotel. Why is Mary mentioned in a Land Document in 1869? (No. 38 in report) If the Courts believe that Mary Bird is an Aboriginal, hundreds (and who know's there could 1000's) of descendants could claim Aboriginality along with the Thorpe branch

Iv send documenys to Geni

Hi Private User
You can message me via this discussion

I have been sent documents and images that the families are not comfortable to put on Geni.

In 2002 the Tasmanian Regional Council determined that Private (Mary Ann’s second great grandson) and his 4 children were accepted as aboriginal people and were entitled to vote in the regional council election.

The evidence of aboriginal ancestry was oral history passed to Private

The photos that I have been sent of Mary Ann BIRD, her husband and their daughter Louisa Jane Phillips do not appear to have any aboriginal characteristics.

Is anyone willing to load photos of descendants to Geni?

Angelia please contact me though Email please timdblam30@yahoo.com as i can not up lod stuff here thank you

Court documents proven that mary ann Bird is

Hi Private User
The tribunal documents only had 1 source - oral history from 1 person.
The court documents also stated “”she is most likely the daughter of Samuel Bird and Lucy Pickett who married in Hobart in 1823. Samuel Bird being a free settler and his wife the daughter of a respectable settler late of New South Wales”

The purpose of the tribunal was to decide if a person was entitled to vote in the elections and they recognised 3 characteristics in assisting to identify members of the Aboriginal race
1. Aboriginal descent
2. Self identification
3. Recognition by the Aboriginal community
And the 3 characteristics were not given equal weight. Ie “persons with remote descent from a full blood aborigine will ordinarily need to demonstrate real self identification as an Aborigine and substantial community recognition”.

Private and his children self identified as Aboriginal and had acceptance in the Aboriginal community”

If Mary Ann BIRD was a full blood Tasmanian Aboriginal (as has been suggested) she would have been the last full blood Tasmania Aboriginal alive (she died in 1909)

Trugannini died in 1876
Fanny Cochrane Smith died in 1905

Just a thought, wouldnt this show up in the dna of any one of the Descendents?

From what I have heard none of the descendants who have had dna tests have shown any % of aboriginal.

NOTE - This could also mean that they just didn’t inherit any of that dna.

I am working to try to ascertain a couple of things

  • earliest stories of aboriginal
  • which branches have the stories
  • which branches are aboriginal

So far it appears to be just one line of Thorpe’s which might mean that it could be a adoption, NPE, incorrect genealogy further down than Mary Ann BIRD

After looking at her photo, indeed it does look like mary Ann could be

Private User

Dear Leanne, it has been requested by a family member that Marys name be altered back to that of the court document,

Aboriganal Mary Ann palwa Bird

please , as it represents great dishonour as it is.

It seems to be locked in the name sections so i can not change it back . kindly Ang

Hi Angelina
There are other descendants who don’t believe that the Mary Ann Bird (who married Tame and Phillips) is the same person as the Mary Ann Palawa Bird in the family lore of Robert William Thorp.

Currently it is only the Robert William Thorp line who have any family stories of Mary Ann Palawa Bird and the only mention of this start is the 2002 documents. Descendants of Robert’s siblings do not have the same family stories (which of course does happen in families).

There is also dna relationships of descendants of Mary Ann Bird (who married Tame and Phillips) to the other children of Samuel Bird and Lucy Pickett and also to descendants of the siblings of Lucy Pickett.

More evidence is needed to confirm that the 2 are the same person.

Leanne

Private User

I understand this

but it IS a Legal court document.. and as we follow leegalise here on this site E.g putting married womans name on their profiles instead of their birth name, ,i thought it was appropriate to ask.

Private User

I will let them know, they are very upset atm, but i will ask them if they can provide more evidence to prove they are the same person, as suggested by you

Kindly Ang

Hi Angelina,
The Mary Ann Bird in this disputed profile has much evidence that this person is not Palawa including DNA that goes to Lucy Pickett the mother, and to Lucy`s sisters. there are many discrepancies to the Thorpe storytelling, which is uncontested in this tribunal. I have not heard or seen any mention of any person who is making these claims having a DNA test to date.
You Have mentioned relatives requesting Mary Ann Bird have her Name changed, are they direct or close relations. If they are then possibly, they should also have a DNA Test.
Terry Francis

Terry John Francis

That may be a very good idea Terry!!

but i would like to ask WHY was there a court hearing in the first place , for this to take place there must have been a reason. so i am just reasoning it,

It is not personal to me , but to the family member who reached out to me. , I did however ask on their behalf. so i have done so., and i understand both sides of this story, I am not a volunteer curator either, so i can not change things .

This is my family tree through to Mary Ann Bird

Mary Ann Tame - Phillips is your first cousin four times removed.
You
→ Edward Joseph Francis
your father → Ethel May Francis
his mother → Edward James Beechey
her father → William Henry Beechey
his father → Jane Beechey
his mother → Lucy Bird - Durrant
her sister → Mary Ann Tame - Phillips
her daughter

The reason for tribunal is to decide if the participants could.vote in the Aboriginal elections.

The first few pages of the full document outline the reasons for the tribunal as well as how the decisions are made.

Private User

Thanks Leanne

Terry let me know you have access to the documents, and joined that group , so i leave it with you

Good Luck :-).

Hi Angelina,
I have the full document which is posted in my group which other group should i Join
Thanks, Terry

Terry John Francis

What do you mean Terry?, sorry i dont understand :-)

Angelina Terry talking about court document that iv all ready shared with you my wife had shared it to Terry Terry it states mary ann Palwa Bird are you going agaist court disition?

Angelina Terry talking about court document that iv all ready shared with you my wife had shared it to Terry Terry it states mary ann Palwa Bird are you going agaist court disition? Please bare with us as we going though floods

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