Are the Appalachian Creech families actually Scotch Irish and not descendants of Henry Creech??????? 🤔

Why would I think the think the Appalachian Creech families might be Scotch-Irish? As a child back in the 1950s my family would travel to Illinois to see my dad's mom. My grandfather had died in 1935. Grandma would tell us that her family was English and that Grandpa's Creech family was Scotch- Irish. Grandma was born in 1883 and grandpa was born in 1876. They both grew up in Clay County Illinois, where they married. My grandpa Benjamin Franklin was a great grandson of Elijah Creech, born 1779. Elijah and, his older brother John, and their younger brother Jonathan, were brought to Lee County, Va. by Stephen Creech about 1799. Jamestown Milton Creech in his book "The Creech Family" claims that the probable parents of Elijah, John, and Jonathan were John and Elizabeth (Robinson) Creech. John (the father?) died about 1783 in North Carolina and is claimed to be the son of Benjamin Creech, a descendant of Henry Creech (who came to Virginia in the 1600s, probably Scottish, but that has never been proven). I fully accepted James Milton Creech's book as the bible of Creech genealogy until I did a dive to better learn about my ancestors. The book is full of tons factual and useful information. But one has to keep in mind that some it is educated guesses. Then the Bell will from 1656 has actually been altered considerably from the original (probably before James obtained a reputed copy). James (b1920 d.1983) spent decades of intense research of records. We are indebted to him. In the 1990s and early 2000s there was a publication named "Creech Country". The editors were dedicated to a thorough study of the Creech genealogy, based on facts as much as possible. And using conjecture only as a steppingstone to eventual discovery of the real facts. Always admitting that it was exactly "just a hypothesis". Their conclusion was that there was no evidence to support that John and Elizabeth was the parents of the 3 boys. As a matter of fact, they couldn't even find evidence that John and Elizabeth were ever married. So, who was their parents and where did they come from?

I will be presenting what little I have found. I hope others will join in this search for the truth. Write in what you have found in your studies. And the facts and hypotheses you have come up with. Let's solve the mystery.

The oldest record that I have found relating to the ancestry of the Creech family that settled in Lee County, Virginia in 1799 and Harlan, Ky. shortly after, is the Elihu Creech interview in John Dickey's diaries. Elihu (who given name was Elisha) was born in 1816, the son of Elijah Creech, born in 1779. In the the interview he gives his birthday (Feb. 17, 1816) and birthplace (Lee County, Virginia). He goes on to say his father was Elijah Creech and uncles were John and Jonathan Creech. He lists the number of children each had and says his uncle John was the father of the Harlan County Creeches and where in Harlan County John lived. He concludes with the statement "The Creeches are Irish". Since his father, Elijah Creech died in the 1850s, Elihu would have been in his 30s, when Elijah died, and have known his father very well and been told the family stories. In those days before tv and radio, families talked together, and ancestry was an important topic. In the 1700s and until the middle 1800s most immigrants from Ireland were Scotch-Irish. As a matter of fact, they were called the Irish. The term Scotch-Irish became popular to separate the Protestants Northern Irish from the Catholic southern Irish after the massive immigrations of southern Irish, after the Potato Famine in the mid 1800s. Thus, it is almost certain he was referring to Scotch-Irish (Ulster Scots) in his statement. The great immigration of the Scotch-Irish between 1720 and the American Revolution would most likely be the time his ancestor came to America. Thus, I believe we must seriously consider the possibility, if not probability that his ancestors really were Scotch-Irish. The John J. Dickey exert was reprinted in the Kentucky Explorer, Volume 12, No.4 September 1997. pg.88

The following information was found in Biographical and Genealogical History of Appanoose and Monroe Counties, Iowa. S. Thompson Lewis, editorial Supervision. The Lewis Publishing Company. Copyright 1903. Page 50. Briefly it states that James Madison Creech, of Appanoose County, Iowa, was born in Hawkins, Tennessee in 1834. He was the son of Stephen Creech and grandson of Elijah Creech, both of whom were born in Virginia. (That would be Lee County, Va. My comment). The book then states that the family is of Irish descent and that the great grandfather (i,e, Elijah's father) was born "on the Emerald Isle, from where he emigrated to the "New World. https://books.google.com/books?id=Qt0_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA50&lpg=... Next to the Elihu Creech interview this is the oldest reference to the origin of any Creech family. It is improbable that Henry Creech of the 1600s was Scotch-Irish, as the great migration of the Scotch-Irish started about 1718. Thus, he was probably from England or Scotland. But now we have Elijah's son, Elihu (Elisha) in Virginia and Elijah's grandson, James Madison Creech living in Iowa, both raised in the early 1800s stating that the family came from the Irish Island. As they were protestants, the great migration of the Scotch-Irish was between 1720 and 1776 and the great migration of the southern Irish to America was not until after 1846, it would be logical to assume they were from Northern Ireland. Again, the term Scotch-Irish is a modern term. Originally Northern and Southern Irish were just referred to as Irish.

A John Creagh is found in Capt. Thomas Waggener's 5th Company, Virginia Regiment in the year 1756. He was listed as 25 years old, 5'3", bookbinder, Irish. Orders, 12 July 1756,” Founders Online, National Archives, https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/02-03-02-0238. [Original source: The Papers of George Washington, Colonial Series, vol. 3, 16 April 1756–9 November 1756, ed. W. W. Abbot. Charlottesville: University Press of Virginia, 1984, pp. 250–259.] It has been proposed that this John was Stephen Creech's father. He could very well be of the right approximate age. The problem is that we lack any documents to connect the two. As far as I have seen this is the only record of John Creagh. There are no immigration, marriage, land, tax, death records or will. We can only prove that he was born in Ireland (but not which part) about, 1741 and his trade was bookbinder, Oh yeah, 5 foot 3 inches tall. This is more than we know about Richard Crich (Critch) who immigrated in 1635. But not enough to claim him, just as we can't claim Richard. In addition, though the name is spelled very similar to Creech or Creech I checked the pronunciation in Gaelic and it is similar to Cray. It appears that the gh was silent.

One more Scotch-Irish Creech. The Rev. Oscar Creech (born 1886, Johnston County, NC. Died 1974) filled out an autobiographical sketch for Chowan College at which he was a trustee. It is among his papers online. At the conclusion he wrote that his father's family was Scotch-Irish and came from Ireland. He also wrote his mother's family was English. His father Ransom Right Creech was born in 1865. I would assume he would have gotten his facts from him and perhaps his grandparents. Stephen Creech who brought John, Eligah, and Jonathan to Lee County, Virginia and is believed to be the true father of the boys, has been traced to eastern Virginia and North Carolina before moving to Lee County, Virginia. Was Oscar a descendant of one of Stephen's older sons? Or? Also, there is a William Creech who appears with Stephen Creech in his earlier days. Believed to be possibly a brother or older son. The Scotch-Irish usually immigrated in family or social groups. Possibly some of the eastern Creeches are descended from him. We may never know. But Oscar and his family got the idea they were Scotch-Irish from somewhere. And so did some Creeches who lived far away.

I have read that there were some families named Creech that came to Canada and New England from around County Cork in Ireland. It is believed by their descendants that they migrated to Ireland in the late 1600s from southern England (Dorset or Somerset I believe). In the 1851 Irish census there are two families surnamed Creech. Both are in County Cork. This could be expected as the Scotch-Irish that moved to America usually moved in groups taking their whole family or congregation with them.

I am hoping some others will join in this discussion. I am only throwing out facts. But like doing a dot-to-dot picture with many dots missing altogether or at least not being numbered, and perhaps some dots that are visible not even belonging to the picture. We may never finish the picture. But many eyes and minds can overcome difficult obstacles. For some reason a portion of the Creech family has believed for 200 years that their ancestor came from Ulster, Ireland. And thus, probably from Scotland or Northern England a couple generations before moving to Ulster. We know that for a fact Henry Creech and his wife immigrated to Virginia sometime before 1682, probably before 1675. We don't really know where he came from, but family legends all seem to place him from Scotland. Creich Parish in Fife County seems likely if so. The Richard Creech legend seems to have no basis whatsoever. There was no Richard Bethune of Creich in the 1600s according to Scottish records. All 3 sons of the Lord have been accounted for. It should have been presented as a hypothesis. To be studied, examined, and hopefully proven or disproven. There are other such hypotheses out there, some likewise weak. But hypotheses can be valuable if used wisely. I believe it has been said that Thomas Edison tried 1000 times to find the right element to make a light bulb. At least he could quickly see if it was right or not. Afraid we will have to work in the dark. So, I am going to throw out a new hypothesis. First the facts. David Bethune was the 8th Lord of Creich. When he died in 1660, possibly his brother William became Lord as David had no male heir. It is possible he sold it shortly before his death, conflicting information. Either way around 1660 the estate. which included the castle and lands, and the right to collect rents from the farmers on those land was sold to James Bethune, friar of Balfour. William did not have a male heir either. OK, now a hypothesis. New owner, new ways. It could be that some of the farmers, i.e. our family, were denied new leases or were displeased with the new owners and left on their own. This would be probably within about a decade of when Henry is possibly first recorded in Virginia. Now add to this that the King of England is, at this time, seeking Scots to move to Ulster to farm the abandoned lands of Northern Ireland. To some a golden opportunity. Perhaps, some of Creich families moved to Ulster. And then a couple generations later joined Henry's American Creeches. Only a hypothesis. But no wilder than anything else out there on the web. Just where did the Scotch-Irish legend come from? Think about it.🤔

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/113095184/john-creagh

James, I just saw this on Geneaology.com: "The last I know of old Stephen Creech is a survey dated 1809 for Elijah Scritch in Lee Co., VA for 50 ac on south bank of Powell River "below Stephen Scritches corner". This does not necessarily mean that Stephen was still living though. Stephen bought two parcels in 1800 and another in 1803, all on the Powell River. I haven't found sale deeds yet and I don't know if Marsil and/or Bill did during all their work in Lee County. Whether Stephen ever made it into Harlan County, I couldn't say, and don't know where that came from. Esaw Wilks Creech did say his grandfather Stephen lived to be 100 years old but he said most all his ancestors lived to be around that old - or at least the person writing his story said that.

The first record we've found for Stephen was 1746 Chowan Co., NC, in a court lawsuit whether Stephen would have had to be at least 21 yrs of age so giving him an approximate birth year of 1725 or before. He appeared in Chowan Co. records periodically until 1755 then in 1760 he had a land warrant as Stephen Screech for 300 acres in Dobbs County bordering Benjamin Screech. By 1766 he was in South Carolina then northward again by 1774.

Of course we know Stephen has been virtually ignored in Creech research and nobody ever questioned his land warrant next to Benjamin when it was printed in "Creech Country". In all honesty we don't know who Benjamin Creech's father was and we do not know who Stephen's father was. "

Good researching Rose! Doesn't look like we are descended from John Creagh. I looked at his signature on a militia role and it was definitely "gh". But spellings were fluid in them days. Anyway, I can't see a connection to his children. Though something may turn up someday. Regarding Stephen here is a link: https://mlarchives.rootsweb.com/listindexes/emails?listname=creech&... It looks to me like there were probably 3 Stephen Creeches. The Esaw W. Creech in your article also said his father lived to be about a hundred. Fact is His father, Isaac, died about 1853 in Clay County, Illinois, About 50 years old. He was my gg grandfather John's brother. Their father, Elijah, was in his 70s when he died in Lee County, Va. His dates were off but I believe his genealogy is right. He refers to my uncle John as Jack. I know of two records that refer to John as Jackson. They are without a doubt referring to him. I don't think the Stephen in 1746 court record is the father of our grandfathers John and Elijah. I think he is too old, but he could be their grandfather?? The 1754 and 1755 Chowan, NC Stephen is probably the older Stephen too. The 1781 and 1782 (Seruth and Seretah, in old hand-written records e and c often looked the same, also ee often looked like u, plus the fact the writer wrote it phonetically as he understood it. Standardize spelling hadn't arrived yet. I think he is our ancestor. What is interesting about these two is that in the 1850 Lee County census, Elijah and Jonathan both reported they were born in Virginia. In 1779 and 1784 respectively. John had already died. You will notice most genealogies have them born in North Carolina, to a John Creech, without evidence. Then on the 1790 Wilkes Co. census Stephen Seritch is listed with 5 sons. Our John, Elijah, and Jonathan fit in the ages. Then when Stephen moves to Lee Co. Va. two other Creech men appear in the county. Could they be the other sons? The 1790 Orangeburg and Norfolk Stephens I believe to be 2 other Stephens. It looks like the John Milton Creech book had it wrong. He gave no evidence to support his claim. Now the question is ........Who was Stephen's father and where did they come from?

I just noticed your John Creagh is different than the one I mentioned earlier. Yours was born in 1740 and mine was 25 in 1756 which would mean he was born about 1731. So now we have 2 John Creaghs. Is it possible Stephen would be an unlisted son of your John Creagh? Or a son of the other John Creagh, of whom we know nothing else about?.

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/02-04-02-0181 Just found this. This is the 1731 John. Notice it has (Creech) after Creagh. Who put that there and why? Interesting🤔

The different spellings that were found include Creagh, Crear, Creag, Creavagh, Cray, Cree and others.

Could it be possible someone added "ch" to the surname of Cree when leaving Ireland to separate themselves from what happened during that time period?

You mentioned a Rev Oscar Creech....I looked him up on FamilySearch, and his ancestry is traced back to......wait for it.... Our Benjamin Creech Dr 1724-1780.

Name: Ransom Right Creech
Gender: Male
Race: White
Age: 64
Birth Date: 11 Mar 1865
Birth Place: Johnston, North Carolina, United States
Death Date: 8 Feb 1930
Death Location: Little River, Wake
Spouse's name: Mrs. Maggie Creech
Father's Name: William Henry Creech
Mother's Name: Pollie Raper
Marriage to Henrietta Sullivan on 22 April 1885.(age 20)
Marriage to Maggie Montgomery after 1900(age 35)

Is it well sourced?

Funny thing. Was looking at genealogies. I found 2 documents attached to Benjamin Creech Sr. They are NC land sales dated 1766 and 1767. But they say Benjamin Creech Junior. Now Benjamin's son Benjamin would be too young to buy land. Thus, it is him, But then his father would also need to be named Benjamin. Which is not what the genealogies say.

Regarding name in Ireland. The Crichton family was in Scotland. Many moved to Ulster for opportunities. In Ireland the name became Creighton. The name Crichton is rare in very America today and the name Creech is rare in Scotland. Creighton are in Ireland. Maybe?

There were over 4 or 5 records for each person that I clicked on: marriage license, death certs, census records.

Is it true? Maybe, then again maybe not as document records have been falsified. I found that out myself and am having a hard time trying to correct that one.

As for the surname, I have no absolute idea. Could it be possible our Creech's were in deed Scots who moved to Ireland, then England, then the US? Yes. Could it be possible Creech are Irish all together? Yes. Will DNA test prove anything? Probably not.

Why mention DNA tests? They only go so far. When the testing for genealogy arrived on scene, people did not realize and still don't, that the test are only accurate as to how many people have provided their own DNA. The database does not have the DNA of every person living or past on the earth. Plus, don't even get me started on the security of it all. Just keep in mind, computer systems can always have stolen data and it can be used against you.

I got a DNA test from a British testing company last year. It came back almost 80% English regions, 10% Southwest Scotland and Ulster as a combined unit (a lot of families moved back and forth). 9% true Irish. A small amount from Aberdeenshire in Scotland. No Fife County. The farther you go back the less DNA an ancestor contributed to your present DNA. Eventually it goes down to zero. So, I don't know if we can go back to 1600s.

I have been watching some Ulster Scots genealogy videos. Without some information to go on it can be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to proof Ulster ancestors. Difficult even with. Only about 3% of the population owned land. For much of the period unless you belonged to the Church of Ireland (the Anglican Church), which marriages were not recognized, births and deaths not recorded. Unless they were by your local Catholic or Presbyterian congregation. Most of whose records have been lost. Tenant farmers who made up most of the residents had a very small paper trail if any depending on the period. On top of that in 1922, during the Irish Civil War, the Public Records Office in Dublin was bombarded into ash. Destroying 6 centuries of records. Tracing our Scotch Irish ancestors can be nearly impossible. On top of that many anglicized their surname or even completely changed it when they arrived in America. In the 1600s and 1700s there were very seldom any lists of passengers on incoming ships. Since they were citizens of the UK there was no immigration records either. It is estimated that before the American Revolution between 100 thousand and 250 thousand (some estimates of up to 400 thousand) people immigrated from Ulster to America, most between 1718 and 1776. The fact that there is so big a gap in that figure just shows how little we know about them. Perhaps we shouldn't demand too much from documented evidence. Rather if we have very old family oral or written histories claiming Scotch Irish or even Protestant Irish (the vast majority of which would be Scotch Irish, again people referred to everyone from both Ulster and southern Ireland as just Irish until the late 1800s when there was a large influx of Catholics from Ireland outside of Ulster, then we should lay at the foot of documentation that it "PROVE" our ancestors were not Scotch Irish. Wow! Sorry about the long sentence. The "mist" that surrounds Ireland thick. If we cannot find after searching, any evidence that disproves our family histories, then maybe we should listen to those voices out of the "mist". The Scotch Irish got here somehow. Just because we can't document them doesn't prove they aren't our blood.

Rose, hope you had a great Thanksgiving. I found this site selling this book about John Creagh. I didn't buy the book. Buth it is interesting that the info on both John Creaghs look the same except for birth date. I checked some sites that gave the 1740 birth date and none of them gave a source. I don't think they have one. If you read over the info on this book you will notice it lists his birthdate as 1731. Which would much better fit his profile. Wives and death years match so I think they are the same man. I don't think he is Stephen's father as Stephen is having children before 1770 and John is not listed as having a son named Steven that I have seen. Possibly Stephen could be a brother or nephew, but at least right now we don't have any evidence. I did some searches on the name Creagh. It seems to be an Irish name with no connection to Scotland or England. It did originate in northern Ireland, but majority had migrated down near County Cork starting about 500 years ago. Though it is possible that the Creeches that migrated to Ireland changed their name to Creagh, to give it a local flavor. The Crichtons from Scotland changed their name after moving to Ulster to Creighton in the 1600s and 1700s. In the 1870s the clan decided to change it back to Crichton. It is also possible Creech is a variation on Creighton. I have lots of family name alterations in various ancestors.

James, Sorry I have been MIA. With the holidays and kids having the flu then passing it around, I haven't felt like much doing anything other than cleaning house when I have the energy.

I have always been told that when our ancestors came to America, the surname was spelled differently and they changed it. No one ever knew as to why it was changed. So I am wondering if maybe it was originally spelled as Creagh but when coming to the US changed to Creech due to the Irish uprising. To better "fit" in with the English/Scottish that were already here, it would make sense to "leave Ireland" behind and not cause any uprising here.

Don't worry Rose. I am retired and have more time than you. I would like to turn this into a brainstorming site. Where we can throw out every idea that pops in our heads and prove or disprove wherever the facts lead. Sometimes they may be wild, but you never know where they will lead. My mother's grandfather was a prospector in New Mexico and Arizona. He never struck it rich but searched till he died. I guess Creech genealogy is my gold nuggets. We will dig a bunch of empty holes but hopefully hit pay dirt someday. There is a lot of fool's gold we will have to be careful of. Hopefully some others will join us someday. In the meantime, take care of your family and check in at least every couple weeks to share what you have found (or not) and any new ideas you come up with. Someday perhaps we will yell "eureka!"

Here is that John Creagh book https://creaghchronicles.org/?olsPage=products. Immigrant name changes really make things tough. Sometimes just changing states doe. My mother's grandmother was a Cruthirds from Mississippi. It is a very unusual name outside of Mississippi. It appears that back in the Carolinas they were the Carruthers or Cruthers. I read one guy who studied the American Creeches. He believed it was pronounced more like scritch. Sc-rit-ch. Short i.

I am a stay at home mom. I never have time! LOL. Anywho, I found this on The Colonial Virginia Register, https://www.newrivernotes.com/the-colonial-virginia-register/ , THOMAS BEALE
of York County, Va. 1662 Born in England. Died after 1676, in Virginia. THE COUNCIL
(The dates opposite the names denote time of appointment or of first appearance in the extant records.)

Since we are having a hard time finding any information, could it be possible we are looking in the wrong place? Not document wise, town/area wise. In the lore/story, it is told that Henry was a ship captain. Maybe he really was and if so, where? Also, couldn't the family have been in another area such as Plymouth or St. Augustine? Keep in mind, history. St. Augustine is the oldest continuously occupied settlement of European origin in the contiguous United States. It was invaded by the Spanish, the French, the English. In 1609 and 1611, expeditions were sent out from St. Augustine against the English colony at Jamestown.

Britain only controlled Florida from 1763 to 1883. effectively until 1781. Not a lot of settlers came there in that period. Spain regained control until selling it to USA in 1819. Records are poor. Chances slim. Britain did settle the Barbados though. Scotch, Irish, and English rebels and major criminals that were captured were often sent to Barbados as indentured servants. Some did migrate to Virginia and the surrounding colonies after finishing their sentence. If records can be found that might lead to something. There are Creeches in New England and Canada. Their family stories claim they are from around Cork, Ireland, and originally migrated to Ireland from Somerset or Dorsett, England. Maybe someone came down from New England. No records found yet. Finding records is tough. For now, what we have is four very old family stories. Elihu Creech in Kentucky, born in 1816 in Lee County, Va. Said Family was Irish. James Madison Creech in Iowa, born in 1834 in Tennessee, says great grandfather was born on the Emeral Isle (Ireland). My grandfather born in 1876 in Illinois. Said Creech family was Scotch Irish. Rev. Oscar Creech, born in 1886 in Johnston County, NC, said his father's people were Scots Irish and they came from Ireland. Remember years ago, the Scots Irish were just referred to as Irish Elihu was a grandson of Stephen. The story is told by families in four different states, each separated from each other. The stories are all over 100 years old. Without documentation to the contrary this is our best evidence. And so far, we have not seen any evidence to the contrary. That is not for the Creeches that lived in Lee County, Va. and Halan County, Ky. anyway. Sure, there is Henry Creech and his family, but we appear to be different breed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_Americans I am adding this for evidence that the Ulster Scots (Scotch Irish) were simply referred to as Irish before 1850. It surely took time for rural areas to transition to the term Scots Irish after then.

You are correct about Britian and Saint Augustine. I'm going to throw out what is running through my mind atm. I only mention Saint Augustine as it is the oldest settlement in the US that is still occupied.

-It could be possible that an English lady could have some how mixed with a Spaniard when the expedition happened in 1609 and 1611.
-In the second half of the 17th century, groups of Indians from the colony of Carolina conducted raids into Florida and killed the Franciscan priests who served at the Catholic missions. Don't forget, many whites mixed with Natives.
-The charter of 1663 for the new Province of Carolina, issued by King Charles II of England, was revised in 1665, claiming lands as far southward as 29 degrees north latitude, about 65 miles south of the existing settlement at St. Augustine.
-Why specifically Jamestown? The story is that Richard Creech came to the US aboard the Journeyman captained by William Carter. How do we know that it couldn't have been another city that was already under English rule?
-Think about the Carolina's as it is told that Henry Creech was the Captian of a ship named Nancy in....... the Carolina's.
- The English started raids on Saint Augustine during the middle to late 1600's.
-There is also the lost settlement of Roanoke in North Carolina.
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