Serbian ethnologists/genealogists at Poreklo.forum :https://forum.poreklo.rs/
- In Serbian
Самуила, кад оно стварно податак код Љ. Церовића:
"Преци Јована Хорвата у Аустријско царство доселили су се из Македоније.
Тамо су вековима живели у насељу Арвати, у нахији ДоД
Ево једног прилога Милка Здравева:
Исељеници из Македоније у Руско царство половином 18.
века.
Она, опет, говори о цинцарском поријеклу, с тим што наводи и референцу:
"Сељења у Русију међу првима је започео пуковник Моришке милиције Јован (Иван) Хорват (из развојаченог шанца Печке) за којег се сматра да је пореклом „из Македонији Цинцар“.20."
Па онда под 20:
"Душан Вуксан, Преписка митрополита Василија, митрополита Саве и црногорских главара, Споменик LXXXVIII, Други разред 69, Београд 1938, 75; Глигор Станојевић, митрополит Василије Петровић и његово доба (1740–1766.), 155; Александар Матковски, Македонскиот полк ..., 166"
Погледати на страници http://www.rastko.rs/rastko-ukr/istorija/2003-ns/mzdraveva.pdf 4/138 први пасус
Не знам, али чини ми се да је неко можда управо доле из Македоније популарисао ту тезу о пореклу Хорвата од доле, јер овако никада не бих повезао презиме Хорват са Македонијом.
Видех у фусноти да се помиње Александар Матковски и тема Македонског полка, те се сетих да имам нешто на ту тему, али кад је реч о Јовану Хорвату он не помиње његово македонско порекло, већ само каже:
Во 1750 година австрискиот полковник Иван Хорват се јавил во руската амбасада и предложил сите Срби, Македонци, Бугари, Власи, Грци и Албанци што живает во Војводина да се преселат во Русија. (в. Грбовите на Македонија, Скопје, 1970, стр 191)
И остало што смо већ поменули, али ништа у вези самог Хорвата, иако га на неколико места помиње (да је знао то, нема сумње да би написао).
Него, кад смо већ код тог Македонског полка, нађох сад да постоји списак људи који га чинише
- In English
This Samuilovič reminded me a little of Samuil, when it is actually information from Lj. Cerovic/Љ. Церовић:
"Jovan Horvat's ancestors immigrated to the Austrian Empire from Macedonia.
They lived there for centuries in the settlement of Arvati, in the nahija of Donja Prespa, east of
the shore of Prespa Lake. They had property here since the time of Nemanjić."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemanji%C4%87_dynasty
Here is a contribution by Milka Zdravev:
"Emigrants from Macedonia to the Russian Empire in the middle of the 18th century.
century".
Милка ЗДРАВЕВА
"ПРЕСЕЉЕНИЦИ ИЗ МАКЕДОНИЈЕ У РУСКО ЦАРСТВО СРЕДИНОМ 18. ВЕКА"
She, again, talks about the Cincar/Vlach origin, with the fact that she mentions the reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians_in_North_Macedonia
"Morish militia colonel Jovan (Ivan) Horvat (from the developed trench of Pečka) was among the first to start emigration to Russia, who is considered to be of "Macedonian Cincar/Vlach" origin. 20."
Then under 20:
"Dušan Vuksan, Correspondence of Metropolitan Vasilije, Metropolitan of Sava and Montenegrin Heads, Monument LXXXVIII, Second Class 69, Belgrade 1938, 75; Gligor Stanojević, Metropolitan Vasilije Petrović and his time (1740–1766), 155; Aleksandar Matkovski, Macedonian regiment. .., 166"
Look at the page http://www.rastko.rs/rastko-ukr/istorija/2003-ns/mzdraveva.pdf 4/138 first paragraph.
I don't know, but it seems to me that maybe someone down there from Macedonia popularized that thesis about the origin of the Horvats from down there, because I would never connect the surname Horvat with Macedonia like this.
I saw in the footnote that Aleksandar Matkovski was mentioned and the subject of the Macedonian regiment, and I remembered that I have something on that subject, but when it comes to Jovan Horvat, he does not mention his Macedonian origin, but only says:
"In 1750, the Austrian colonel Ivan Horvat reported to the Russian embassy and suggested that all Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, Greeks and Albanians living in Vojvodina move to Russia." (See Grbovite na Macedonia, Skopje, 1970, p. 191.)
And the rest that we have already mentioned, but nothing about Horvath himself, although he mentions him in several places (if he had known that, there is no doubt that he would have written).
So it seems like the place of origin of Marko Horvat its an object of historical discussion, later his descendants were identified as Serbs Orthodox, but i am more interested in the I-FT355524 haplogroup (our common paternal line) where did it come from !? If it was from Macedonia (Harvati village) then how can we explain the presence of this Haplogroup in south Albania ( i have tested more 36 other Albanian under I-S17250 and I-PH908 hg's and till now i am the Only I-FT355524)? It is not Vlach/Cincar because neither I nor the Turks (Slavic & Albanian roots) have Vlach ancestors.
So i guess the more people take Y-DNA tests the more we will find out about I-FT355750 (and subclade I-FT355524) true and original homeland.
That is why i am so interested in the new samples id:YF112482 and id:YF109768 at I-FT355750 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/I-FT355750/
They can help us to clarify this issue with further historical and ethnological information.
Andrea
