Ludwig "Lewis" Winkler - From DAR on "Lewis" Winkler

Started by Susanne Floyd on Thursday, March 9, 2023
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For discussion to determine if it is the same person.

Ancestor #: A203772

WINKLER, LEWISAncestor #: A203772

Service: NORTH CAROLINA Rank(s): PATRIOTIC SERVICE

Birth: 7- -1715

Death: ANTE 4-13-1798 ROWAN CO NORTH CAROLINA

Service Source: PRUITT, ABSTRACTS OF LAND ENTRIES ROWAN CO NC P 62; NC REV WAR PAY VOUCHERS #1819, ROLL #S.115.134

Service Description: 1) TOOK OATH OF ALLEGIANCE TO MAKE LAND ENTRY IN ROWAN CO NC 10-10-1783

Wife XX

DAR proven children :

Elizabeth m. Philip Garner, Sr.

Phoebe m. John Rickard

Tagging Erica Howton I saw the note this morning about needed a source for his service. Not sure, but.....I have to head to work and can check some other places, but this for now.
2) FURNISHED SUPPLIES

I believe that son Henry is DAR too.

WINKLER, HENRYAncestor #: A090681

Service: NORTH CAROLINA Rank(s): PRIVATE

Birth: 3- -1756 NORTHAMPTON CO PENNSYLVANIA

Death: 7-1-1836 ESTILL CO KENTUCKY

Pension Number: S*W3061

Service Source: S*W3061

Service Description: 1) CAPTS DAVID SMITH & PETER HETRICK

Married Susannah X

Proven children:

Lewis m. Sarah X

Henry m. Jane Abner

Sons Adam and Francis are already marked as DAR.

Important family

There is definitely conflation between two different Ludwig Winklers. I have been chasing down Ancestry DNA matches for the past year.

Here is my summary of results so far:

Ludwig Winkler m. Anna Christina Lente Abt. 1742

DNA matched children are:

-- Catherine Winkler b. 1745 m. Theobold Devault Kepley

-- George Wingler b. Abt. 1750 m. Trista Rosa Will. His only definite DNA matching child is Leonard Wingler b. 1780 m Jyre Dancy

-- Maria Winkler b. April 06, 1751 m. Jacob Beck

-- Francis Winkler b. 1753 (or 1745) m. Mary Catherine Bott Abt. 1769 (my line)

-- Henry Winkler b. March 1756 m. Susannah Ross

-- Thomas Winkler b. Abt. 1760 He is not usually listed among the children of Ludwig, but by at least one tree, his son is Jakob Winkler b. 1788, and grandson is Jacob Winkler b. 1809 m. Mary Polly Hale. This "Thomas" Winkler line is giving me DNA matches on both brothers George and Francis. So it is also possible that his name is a mistaken identity with one of those brothers, if Thomas does not actually exist.

-- Phoebe Winkler b. 1763 m. John Rickard. I only seem to have one DNA match descendant from Phoebe, and that match is also descended from Maria.

So the one major child whom I do not have a DNA match for is Barbara Elizabeth Winkler who married Phillip Garner. It is possible shat she is the legitimate sibling of Phoebe, and that I actually have Phoebe in my DNA matches as from this other Ludwig Winkler line, separately from the oher Ludwig Winkler line which is DNA matching all the other children.

I would not be surprised to have both just by coincidence, because a lot of my lines are crossing over certain families, making it very difficult to isolate them by DNA.

I also have no match for Eliza Winkler who married DeVault Blaze.

I also have no DNA matching for the older ancestors, Jacob Winkler Winkler (Vinclai) and Anna Catharina Wendel, nor for the supposed wife Christine Catherine Dietz

So that leads me to believe that all of these DNA matching children, with the possible exception of Phoebe and Eliza, actually belong to the Ludwig Winkler who is NOT connected here as a father. On the other hand, the DAR seems to indicate that hie is indeed the same man?

Private User

You're my fourth cousin and we share this line. It's two different men with similar names and location of their family lines. Their families and children have gotten intertwined over time because of similar names, location and ages. I've been documenting their maternal and paternal line with documents to follow. I have my DNA matches Public on here,so feel free to check those out. My line is Francis "Franz" Winkler as well. It will take some time and collaboration to work out the lines and add the information. I've started adding them to Geni after this generation but will not fix and merge anything until completed. With Genealogy we're always going off the best information at the time. My maternal line has taken two years to work out because of same problem of similar name,age and location. Do we follow each other? So we can upload documents to this line.

Here's where I started and went up.

Ludwig "Lewis" Winkler

I meant this... I haven't connected the above to this line...

Jakob Winkler

At this time it's showing broken up. I'm working on it as they were just added.

Hans Jacob Winkler

All, I just hope the DAR material helps. I am only indirectly connected to the Winklers but like to help document patriots. Maybe the posts will help from the DAR. But....

Annber Lynn Collins, we are 11th cousins 2 x removed.

Private User, we are 14th cousins 2 x removed.

I’m unclear about Ludwig "Lewis" Winkler

Who were his parents & wife?

Susanne Floyd That's awesome. I wonder if will change overtime? I've noticed that happening a lot with cousins.

Erica Howton My headspace was on the next generation,as that was what I was referring too about it being different men.

Hans Jacob Winkler m Anna Muller the line should end in
1536
Bern, Switzerland as far as I have. I'm adding the line information to expand that. It's mostly correct but needs expanded.
The one daughter was an Elizabeth and never a Barbara. The profile for Ludwig has two Elizabeth children.

I was looking at a merge issue,the DAR for both men I have in reference to this conversation. That's why I haven't merged or touched anything yet. I'll be modifying a generation above Ludwigs.

Hans Jacob Winkler

Erica, I think Ludwig "Lewis" Winkler is connected to the correct parents, and possibly correct wife.

The problem seems to be that most, if not all, of the currently connected and widely accepted children actually belong to an entirely different Ludwig Winkler, from an entirely different lineage, possibly.

The DNA seems to confirm that the siblings are mostly all correct as siblings of each other, but that the commonly presumed parents have no DNA connection.

This relationship error has been historically propagated everywhere in all trees. So unwinding it by DNA is probably necessary.

Updated DNA connection with hyperlinks, to track tree adjustment progress.

Here is my summary of DNA results so far:

Ludwig Winkler (no profile yet) m. Anna Christia Winkler Anna Christina Lente Abt. 1742

DNA matched children are:

-- Catherine "Katy" Berkshire Catherine “Katy” Winkler b. 1745 m. Theobold Devault Kepley. He died 1778, The widow Catherine declined to be administrator of his estate and Ludwick Winkler (presumably her father) was appointed by the Court. Catherine then married Johann George Burkhart.

-- George Wingler (no connected profile) b. Abt. 1750 m. Trista Rosa Will. His only definite DNA matching child is Leonard Wingler b. 1780 m Jyre Dancy

-- Mary Beck Maria Winkler b. April 06, 1751 m. Jacob Beck

-- Francis Winkler Francis Winkler b. 1753 (or 1745) m. Mary Catherine Bott Abt. 1769 (my line)

-- Henry Winkler, I Henry Winkler b. March 1756 m. Susannah Ross

-- Thomas Winkler (no connected profile) b. Abt. 1760 He is not usually listed among the children of Ludwig, but by at least one tree, his son is Jakob Winkler b. 1788, and grandson is Jacob Winkler b. 1809 m. Mary Polly Hale. This "Thomas" Winkler line is giving me DNA matches on both brothers George and Francis. So it is also possible that his name is a mistaken identity with one of those brothers, if Thomas does not actually exist.

-- Phoebe Rickard Phoebe Winkler b. 1763 m. John Rickard. I only seem to have one DNA match descendant from Phoebe, and that match is also descended from Maria.

I am missing any known DNA matches for the following supposed children:

-- Barbara Elizabeth Garner Barbara Elizabeth Winkler b. 1744 who married Phillip Garner.

-- Eliza Winkler Eliza Winkler b. Abt. 1764 who married DeVault Blaze.

-- Catherine Kepley Catherine Kepley is likely the same sibling as

-- Catherine "Katy" Berkshire Catherine "Katy" Berkshire (Winkler) Catherine “Katy” Winkler b. 1745 m. Theobold Devault Kepley. He died 1778, The widow Catherine declined to be administrator of his estate and Ludwick Winkler (presumably her father) was appointed by the Court. Catherine then married Johann George Burkhart.

The "Berkshire" husband looks to me like a conflation of the Burkhart husband's name. But they may be two different men, with the Berkshire one married to the wrong Catherine. I just know that I have strong DNA matching to the Kepley descendants through Catherine as a sibling Francis.

As mentioned above, the DNA matching only accounts for one single son of the supposed sibling "George":

# Leonard Wingler b. 1780 m. Jyre Wingler

So next step will be trying to hunt down proof of existence for "George," or else identifying some other likely father of this DNA-proven grandson Leonard.

Private User

I did generate a profile for Ludwig who married Anna. As well as added another possible line of decent.

I'll list the information I want to reference for DNA evidence I have for generations form son Francis.

DNA matches and collective Genealogy has for the next generation below Ludwig for me as follows;

39 DNA matches and my direct line from, Jacob"Doc Wingler:

Francis Wingler Married Elizabeth "Betsy" Helsey, children of marriage;

26 DNA matches,Jacob "Doc" Wingler married,Sally Myers

3 DNA matches, John Loren Wingler married, Nacy Elizabeth Miller

2 DNA matches, Elizabeth M Wingler married,William S Miller

6 DNA matches, William "Micheal" Wingler married,Lou Regina Tow or Laurania Razor Tow as I've seen it both ways

2 DNA matches, Alexander Wingler married, Mary Caroline Minerva Tignar

Ludwig presented in the information I have as, Lewis
"Ludvig" Wingler.

B April 15th, 1716 Germany and D April 13, 1798 Rowan North Carolina

I know first cousins married in the Beck and Winkler line,

William Frederick Beck (b. 1804) had parents that were first cousins. His father, Frederick Beck's (b. 1765) parents were Jacob Beck and Mary Winkler. William's mother, Mary Ann Rickard' parents were John Rickard and Phoebe Winkler. Mary and Phoebe Winkler were sisters.

Will;

https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/2438016?mark=d85abfb199686c2ca795b...

Vital records and in-law relationship;

https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/2438009?mark=43500afb9d6e9be73ec25...

Another source for Will;

https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/2438033?mark=1d4d5316d8dfeb665e426...

Will transcribe;

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aJ29Sne7lbG4oZts4J6fRLgbHCqzp_Ws/v...

Some kind of coat of arms drawing;

https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/2438067?mark=9a0bcf76b57d94ed54de7...

History attached to the Lewis in my Tree;

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1a66yX2es8Ob424hfZ7DEl8e_oUio9Phi/v...

It appears Lewis and Ludwig are different people. One in Pennsylvania and one in North Carolina.
One line comes straight from Germany to North Carolina and the other line from Switzerland. I added the other line the other day.They both do appear in Germany as well.

As for missing DNA evidence there's no link to Polly Winkler or Jane Winkler for Francis and Elizabeth (Hesley) Winkler, in another tree presented as their children. I'm looking and adding records,if they are exist as I haven't branched out on other platforms for DNA matches.

I know I have more information and will try to work on the next generation with my DNA matches as well. Sorry for the delay as I've had the flu past three weeks and have been on/off online.

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