Siegel families conflated or???

Started by Private User on Friday, June 2, 2023
Problem with this page?

Participants:

  • Private User
    Geni Pro
  • Private User
    Geni Pro
  • Geni member

Profiles Mentioned:

  • Gravestone of Jacob Siegel in Mt. Hebron Cemetery, Kovner Young Men Society, Block 28, Ref 2, Sec A-D, Line 6, Grave 5 . Photo from Jay Newman via MyHeritage.
  • Photo by Jeff Kontoff, FindAGrave. | https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/82753155/harris-siegel
    Geni member
  • Photo by Jeff Kontoff, FindAGrave. | https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/82753155/harris-siegel
    Geni member
  • "New York, County Naturalization Records, 1791-1980," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89MX-9SH7?cc=1999177&wc=MDSL-7Z9%3A326204001%2C327144901 : 13 September 2019), Kings > Petitions for naturalization and petition evidence 1909 vol 12, no 2751-3000 > image 78 of 181; Citing multiple County Clerk offices of New York.
Showing 1-30 of 35 posts

On Geni now:
Ben-sion “Bernard” Siegel. = Ben-sion “Bernard” Siegel
And Leah "Alte" (Finkelstein) Siegel. = Leah Siegel
have a large number of children, 8 of them currently private, 3 that are Public.
The 3 that are Public:
Rivke "Ray" (Siegel) Tenenbaum - Rivke "Ray" Tenenbaum, later Tenen - she went by Ray Tenen
Aaron Siegel = Harry / Aaron Siegel - he went by Harry Siegel
Frances "Fanny" (Siegel) Goldberg = Frances "Fanny" Goldberg

And on Geni now
Leah "Alte" (Finkelstein) Siegel. = Leah Siegel
And Arye Abba Siegel = Abraham Jacob Siegel
have children

And on Geni now:
Arye Abba Siegel = Abraham Jacob Siegel
And Rachel Leah (Pearlman) Siegel = Rokha Leya / Rachel Leah Siegel
have children

I have been chasing records and doing a little updating of names and etc.

I have uploaded the NY Marriage Record for
Philip Siegel = Philip Siegel
It shows he was born in Kovno Russia -- Father: Aron -- Mother: Lillie Pearlman
So I switched him to be a son of
Arye Abba Siegel and Rachel Leah (Pearlman) Siegel

Barnet / Benjamin Siegel = Barnet / Benjamin Siegel
is a witness on the Nat. Petitions of Philip Siegel and Jacob Siegel, and
on the 1930 Census is living in the household of Phillip Siegel and listed as his brother
He was already listed as a son of
Arye Abba Siegel and Rachel Leah (Pearlman) Siegel

Currently Arye Abba Siegel also shows two children by Leah "Alte" (Finkelstein) Siegel
But I am not at all sure either of those are correct
Jacob Siegel = Yaakov Bentzion/Jankel Bentsel, later Jacob Siegel
According to his Nat. Petition, he was born 19th September 1883 in Kovna, Russia and
On his NY Death Record Father: Harry, born Russia -- Mother: Leah, born Russia - no last name given for either
And Joseph Siegel = Joseph Siegel
who has Birth: circa 1888 and so far that is it for dates, has no places or spouse or children and so far has no record.

Leah Alte Finkelstein appears to be the matriarch of a family headed by a Ben-Sion Siegel.

Evidence that this family is *not* connected to Arye Abba Siegel's family:

1. Ben-Sion Siegel and Leah Alte Finkelstein's family lived in Bialystok, which is about 250km away from Kovno, where Arye Abba Siegel lived and his children were born

2. Of Arye Abba Siegel's children currently attributed to Leah Alte Finkelstein: Jacob Siegel was born in Kovno in ~1882, and his brother Joseph in ~1888. Meanwhile, the two children of Arye Abba Siegel attributed to Rachel Leah Pearlman bookend these births: Barnet/Benjamin was allegedly born around 1875 and Philip was born around 1895. It is unlikely that Arye Abba Siegel had a child with Rachel Leah Pearlman, then two with Leah Alte Finkelstein, then another with Rachel Leah Pearlman.

3. Furthermore, Leah Alte Finkelstein allegedly gave birth to Aaron son of Ben-Sion Siegel in ~1882 in Bialystok. While that date is not yet confirmed by original documents, it seems unlikely that Leah Alte Finkelstein would have had two children in the same year (or even in close succession) in Bialystok and in Kovno with two different men. I can't see the private profiles to know whether there is additional overlap/close spacing.

Of the three children I can see of Ben-sion “Bernard” Siegel. and Leah "Alte" (Finkelstein) Siegel
two are apparently not the children of someone with the Birth Surname "Finkelstein"

For Ray
There is a Nat. Petition for "Ray Tenen also known as Rebecca Tenenbaum, formerky Rebecca Segal" - says naturalized by Naturalization of her father, Bencion Segal in 1910. Married to husband Jacob in New York in 1911.
-On 1911 NY Marriage Record as Rebecca Seigel -- age 21 -- born Russia -- Father: Benjamin - Mother: Ida Kartun
There is a 1943 NY Death Record for Ray Tenen with husband Jack Tenen, parents Bencion Siegel and Alte Karten, Ray and parents born Bialastock, Russia.

For Frances "Fanny" (Siegel) Goldberg there is a 1905 NY Marriage that I have uploaded for her -
It has her listed as Fenie Segel - age 22 - born Russia -- Father: Benziias[?] Siegel -- Mother: Leie Schifre Kartun

I noticed that, too. What documents have Finkelstein for Bension Siegel's wife?

I've identified several other children of Bension Siegel and Alte Kartun (or variants), but due to profile privacy, I can't add the documentation easily.

There is an indexed version of Alta Segal's 1914 death record that identifies her parents as Jacob and Peia? Kartun. She is buried in the BIALYSTOCK-1 section fo Mt. Zion Cemetery in Queens. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WNZ-16Q?cid=fs_copy Note: This death date (1914) does not match the death date given for Leah Alte Finkesltein (~1951).

Have two women been conflated here as well, in addition to the confusion between Arye Abba Siegel (from Kovno)'s family and Ben-Sion Segal (from Bilaystok)'s family?

It would be really helpful if the deceased children of Ben-Sion and Alte were made public.

Ben Zion Segal's death record (1918) indicates that he was widowed, which is consistent with a 1914 death year for Alte (Kartun) Segal. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WNP-V81?cid=fs_copy The 12 Feb 1918 death date for Ben Zion is consistent with the Feb 1918 burial in the Bialystok-1 section of Mt. Zion Cemetery (under Benjamin Segal). https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/146625232/benjamin-segal

So this provides additional circumstantial evidence that the couple Ben Zion and Atte (Kartun, not Finkelstein!) Segal were from Bialystok, which is consistent with other records.

I am thinking there are basically two possibilities -- either
1) there are two completely different couples, Bension and Leah Kartun and Bension and Leah Finkelstein and somehow there familes got smashed togethet
OR
2) there was one Bension who had two wives Leah Kartun and Leah Finkelstein

Currently, I have no idea which is more likely.

So far, for Aaron = Harry
I have found no records giving his mother
On his Gravestone his name in English is Harry Siegel, in Hebrew it is
[Aharon] son of the revered [Ben Tzion HaCohen]
His obit https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-news-obituary-for-harry-sieg... includes survived by "two brothers, Samuel, and Jack Siegel, and a sister, Mrs. Libby Fliescher, all of Brooklyn" -- and I have confirmed using search that the 8 Private children include a Sam, a Jack, and a Libby.

Per Bencion Segal's naturalization petition:
Bencion Segal, 252 Heywood[?] St., NYC.
Occupation: Foreman.
Born 2 Sep 1852, Bialystock, Russia.
Arrived from Rotterdam about 25 July 1903 aboard Statendam.
Wife Leah Segal from Bialystock.

7 children:
Morris (15 Sep 1876)
Harry (12 Nov 1877)
Fanny (3 Feb 1884)
Helen (12 Dec 1886)
Rebecca (22 Nov 1889)
Jacob (29 Dec 1889)
Samuel (21 Jan 1891)
all born in Russia.

There's a pretty big gap between Harry (Aaron) and Fanny; could have been a remarriage in between, or perhaps pregnancies/children that did not survive long, among other possibilities.

"New York, County Naturalization Records, 1791-1980," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89MX-9SH7?cc=1999177&a... : 13 September 2019), Kings > Petitions for naturalization and petition evidence 1909 vol 12, no 2751-3000 > image 78 of 181; Citing multiple County Clerk offices of New York.

In teh list above, we have Aaron/Harry, Sam(uel), and Jack (Jacob) Do we know much about LIbby? Is she Rebecca or Helen?

I have added a profile for Leah Kartun - Leah / Altie "Alte" Siegel
So we have a place to attach records without risking corrupting a file that may be of somebody else.

Have so far uploaded her Death Record to it.

This appears to be Morris Siegel's death record. Birth date on death certificate index doesn't match Bension's naturalization record, but parents' names ("Ben Zion Siegel" and
"Alta Karten") are pretty distinctive. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KFWR-SCH?cid=fs_copy The actual certificate is available on Ancestry.com, but I can't upload it because the profile is private. Morris' wife was named Anna Schneider.

The 8 private profiles - children of Ben-sion “Bernard” Siegel. and Leah "Alte" (Finkelstein) Siegel -
are all managed by Max Henry Blechman and Jeri Solomon
Perhaps they will make some or all of them Public or give us more info.

Search also confirms a Morris and a Helen among the Private Profiles.
We already had Jack and Sam.
Rebecca would be Rivke = Ray. She is Public, as are Harry (Aaron) and Fanny

So - looks like 4 Private Profiles unaccounted for still.

The 8 private profiles - children of Ben-sion “Bernard” Siegel. and Leah "Alte" (Finkelstein) Siegel -
are all managed by Max Henry Blechman and Jeri Solomon
Perhaps they will make some or all of them Public or give us more info.

Search also confirms a Morris and a Helen among the Private Profiles.
We already had Jack and Sam. Plus a Libby from Harris obif that is not in that list.
Rebecca would be Rivke = Ray. She is Public, as are Harry (Aaron) and Fanny

So - looks like 3 Private Profiles totally unaccounted for still.

There's a Joe, who married Liza Padolsky in NY in 1904: "New York, New York City Marriage Records, 1829-1938", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24MP-2NT : 19 August 2022), Benzion Siegel in entry for Joe Siegel and Liza Padolsky, 1904.

Helen married a Lewis/Louis Levin(e) in NY and died in 1944: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WTN-KGL?cid=fs_copy

Testing. Hi, Lois. Please let me know if you get this message.

Yup, you posted successfully, Jeri.

Jeri also kindly made all those Private Children deceased and Public.
Once upon a time, any profile imported in a Gedcom that did not have a death date was automatically set as living on Geni. That was probably left over from then.

I am thinking Elena "Helen" Levine and Elena "Helen" Levine are the same. The second has the same children I had found for "our side" but had not yet added.
Elena "Helen" Levine not sure which records we have added I should call your attention to, but could you look them over, let us know what questions or concerns you have before we merge -- or???

I messed up the tagging above - meant to tag manager of the "other" Helen Levine. Have contacted her another way instead.

"Fenie" Siegel was living at 719 E 5th St when got married in April 1905, "Hellen" was living there when she got married in 1906, and just found and uploaded 1905 Census for Benzion (AncestryLibrary shows transcribed as Benjion) and "Lina" "Sigal" living there in 1905 with 5 children, listed as: Aron, Hellen, Jake, Sam, Rebecca.

There is one "Source" attached to Ben-sion “Bernard” Siegel and Leah (Finkelstein) Siegel = Leah Siegel
It is a FamilyTree at FamilySearch: MyHeritage Link: https://www.myheritage.com/research/record-40001-1934255483/leah-si...
This is the page of Sources for her - this time from FamilySearch:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/G873-CYF

Have not examined carefully yet, but looks like definitely a mash-up -- ie not the same family as
Benzion and Leah/Altie/Anna (she went by many different first names) Kartun Segal (or Siegel)

Yes. Most of the records attached to the FamilySearch tree entry pertain to a Leah (birth surname unstated) Siegel married to a Harris/Harry Siegel whose family lived in Massachusetts during the 1910-1940 censuses.

They are clearly and demonstrably distinct from the families of both of Arye Abba Siegel and Rachel Leah Pearlman Siegel (who lived in NYC from the time of their immigration until their deaths in 1929 and 1931, respectively), and also Ben-Sion Siegel/Segal and Leah/Alta/Anna/Ida Kartun Siegel/Segal (who lived in NYC from the time of their immigration until their deaths in 1918 and 1914, respectively).

The one record linked to either of these NY families is the death record of Jacob Siegel (son of Arye Abba, there listed as Harry), whose mother is listed as "Leah" (no maiden name given). But there is no reason to think that Jacob's mother Leah is the Leah married to Harry Siegel of Massachusetts, when other evidence suggests that Jacob's mother was Rachel Leah Pearlstein Siegel.

Still not clear where Finkelste(e)in comes from.

(In post above, change Pearlstein ro Pearlman in last big paragraph. Whoops!)

I agree that Elena "Helen" Levine and Elena "Helen" Levine are identical and should be merged.

Incidentally, it appears that Leah Siegel of the Massachusetts Siegel family referenced above may have been born Leah Pokras (or something similar), not Finkelstein. She and Harry are buried together in Springfield, Massachusetts. The gravestone indicates that Harry was Tzvi son of Rafael haLevi (and his daughter's stone gives his name as Tzvi Hirsch haLevi). https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/82753113/leah-siegel

The Massachusetts family -- which, again, has no obvious connection to either New York family we've been discussing above -- is documented on Geni here: Harris Siegel and Leah (Lizzie) Siegel

i am thinking it is definitely time to remove the "Partner" relation between
Leah Siegel
and Ben-sion “Bernard” Siegel

Having tagged both, I will try to be patient and give any interested parties 48 hours to respond.

Jeri had told me, about those 8 formerly private profiles - that had been llisted as children of Ben-sion “Bernard” Siegel. and Leah "Alte" (Finkelstein) Siegel -
"These profiles were created by my cousin Max Blechman. They are his relatives, not mine. We are related through his mom and this is his dad's family." and that "Max created these profiles but then he didn't sign in for a long time so Geni decided to make me manager of his files."

I get lost trying to wade thru all the changes Leah (Finkelstein) Siegel has gone thru -- can anyone tell, did Max give the version he created a birth surname, and if so, which?

He is definitely descended from Benzion and Leah/Altie/etc Kartun Segal (or Siegel) and should be able to continue management of her..

But that Leah did not have any children by Arye Abba Siegel and did not have Birth Surname Finklestein.
I can send him an invite to manage the new profile I created for Leah/Altie/Anna (she went by many different first names) Kartun Segal (or Siegel) and that all Ben-sion's children have been moved to.
Does that seem to folks it would be doing right by him? Or other suggestions?

Just checked out the latest family Lisa referenced above.

So, copying and pasting and expanding --
It looks like we have 3 distinct families that were mashed up

1) Ben-sion / Benzion Siegel and Leah/Altie/(etc) Kartun, some or all of whose children were born in Bialystok. They died in NY in 1918 and 1914 respectively

2) Arye Abba Siegel and Rachel Leah Pearlman Siegel, who lived in NYC from the time of their immigration until their deaths in 1929 and 1931, respectively. Children born in Villajampole and/or Kovno.

3) There is a Leah Finkelstein in a Family Tree on familySearch which is a listed source for the profiles on Geni, has records that actually go to a Leah (birth surname unstated) Siegel married to a Harris/Harry Siegel whose family lived in Massachusetts during the 1910-1940 censuses -- that Leah may have been born Leah Pokras (or something similar), not Finkelstein

Yes.

It seems that Leah nee Finkelstein Siegel may belong to yet a fourth family, this one from Wąsosz, Łomża, Poland:

Leah Szydlo, later Siegel?
married to Abraham Leizer Siegel?

Note that I have not found any indications that this couple moved to the US, just their children. Thus, it's not clear that they ever actually adopted the surname Siegel.

The name Leah Finkelstein comes from 1) Nathan Siegel 's marriage record, and 2) Sadie Siegel, later Geffner 's marriage and NUMIDENT/Social Security records.

Apologies, Lisa, for having forgotten you started this discussion long ago: https://www.geni.com/discussions/239524

Any feel for which of the 4 Leah possibilities so far, in an ideal world, this Leah should be merged into / become?

Since the proifile was originally created by Max Blechman, whose ancestor was Leah / Altie "Alte" Siegel , I would suggest that this is the most appropriate merger.

Of course, we will need to disconnect her from Arye Abba Siegel's family (detach Arye Abba Siegel as husband and Jacob and Joseph as children, reassigning them to Rachel Leah Pearlman Siegel) before we do that. We should also remove the name Finkelstein, which has no substantiation in that context..

While we're at it, I'm wondering if the son Joseph Siegel attributed to Arye Abba Siegel isn't also a legacy of one of these conflated families. His profile is blank. Are there any documents that link someone named Joseph to Arye Abba Siegel or to Arye's substantiated children (Jacob, Philip, Barnet/Benjamin)?

Current thought -- ask a Curator to undo the merge that was done on that Leah, then hopefull merge each version in correctly.

Showing 1-30 of 35 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion