Ynyr, King of Gwent - Date for Ynyr

Started by Nancie Brunk on Friday, July 7, 2023
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I love to see the documents. In this case the document that is linked doesn't compliment the information given for Ynyr and his daughter Morvydd.
According to the document, Ynyr is not the King of Gwent. Also, I have come up the line on Geni and the dates on this page are not consistent.
I think the date for Ynyr should be closer to 930. Am I missing something? Help appreciated. Thank you.

Often in the very early Welsh trees, the surviving manuscripts are even more problematic than they are in the later branches.

In this case, as the curator’s note says, there are issues because men with the same name have been conflated.

Besides the link to Bartrum, there is also a link to Wolcott’s work on untangling the last bits that Bartrum didn’t get to.

See if that helps —

And Steven Mitchell Ferry can you help explain this piece of things? Of see if we got those dates wrong? Thanks.

There were at least 3 men in Welsh genealogies known as Ynyr Gwent. The first was born c. 440 and married a daughter of Vortimer. The 2nd was born in the mid 6th century: Ynyr Gwent Lastly, we have the man in the instant profile, who should more precisely be labeled as King of Upper Gwent. Bartrum dates him at c.1000, while Wolcott places him at c.1030.

You can see by Bartrum's Gen #'s that he had some confusion, based on conflation of various children of the different men named Ynyr. Look at the children of Caradog ap Ynyr Fychan. Dyfnwal is at Gen 2, while his father is at Gen 3 !!!. And Dyfnwal's brother is at Gen 5 !!!

Nancie Brunk can you gives us the line you developed back to Ynyr to come up with a man of c. 930?

It may help you to know how Bartrum and Wolcott assign dates in the Welsh pedigrees. I suggest you read Wolcott's paper on that subject: http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id22.html . Bartrum's dating is found here: https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000173388585842

Thank you for the information. I will read the article and get back to you with my line.

Concerning Ynyr dates, I began with
Angaharad verch Owain 1075 m. to Gruffydd Ap Cynan 1070
d/o Owain apEdwine 1050 m. to Unk
s/o Edwin ap Gronwy of Tegeingl 1020 m. to Iwerydd verch Cynfn 1022
s/o Gronwy ap Gwaithfoed of Tegeingl 990 m. to Ethelfleda verch Edwin 1000
s/o Gwaithfoed of Tegeingl 'Prince of Powys' 955 m. to Morvydd verch Ynyr 960
d/o Ynyr should be at least in the lower 900s or so.

Nancie Brunk Ah... I see. The problem is that you have Morfydd married to Gwaithfoed of Tegeingl. In Bartrum's chart his does not have Morfydd as a daughter of Ynyr Gwent, but as a great granddaughter of that man, and, yes married to Gwaithfoed of Tegeingl. The various Gwaithfoed men is another area where Bartrum gets tripped up. Wolcott sorts that out in this paper: http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id125.html.

Morfydd was the daughter of Ynyr Gwent, and was married to Gwaithfoed of Gwent (the first man of that iteration.) So, her dates are correct as c.1060, daughter of a c.1030 Ynyr, and married to a c. 1045 Gwaithfoed of Gwent.

Yikes. I kind of had a WALES headache yesterday evening. Thank you for finding my error. It is appreciated very much.

Nancie Brunk — this is a very thorny piece of the World Tree, and few people want to learn it!

But those of us who love it love it dearly, despite the scratches.

Hang with us if you want to get to know it — and the main resources we are using are

https://www.geni.com/projects/Bartrum-Genealogical-Project/4476525

And

http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/index.html

(and Steven and I both thrive on explaining things.)

Nancie Brunk It's not your error, it's Bartrum's. He led you right to Gwaithfoed of Tegeingl. Anyone would have followed along that path had they not known that other paths were better.

Thank you for the encouragement. I have far more history in Wales than I ever thought; also Scotland. I have learned a few things, but my tongue gets tied in knots trying to pronounce some of these names! I do enjoy it though. I will be around. Thank you!

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