Private User says about this profile: Marion Bruce
According to Stirnet, this particular Marion Bruce was not the wife of John Menteith of Caverkay. It was her aunt, the daughter of Sir David Bruce of Clackmannan and his second wife Mariot Herries.
Private User says about this profile: Marion Bruce
According to Stirnet, this particular Marion Bruce was not the wife of John Menteith of Caverkay. It was her aunt, the daughter of Sir David Bruce of Clackmannan and his second wife Mariot Herries.
According to the late Major William Bruce Armstrong, Marion Bruce was married three times. First, about 1500, to John Menteith of Caverkay. Second to Robert Bruce of Airth, and third to Magnus Sinclair Kynninmonth.
The Scots Peerage III: 473
https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun03pauluoft/scotspeerage...
The lady named Marion Bruce who married John Menteith of Caverkay was the daughter of David Bruce of Clackmannan, elder, and the sister of David Bruce of Clackmannan, younger. This is proved by a civil action (before the Lords of Council) which was raised against her husband by her father and brother. Her father appears to have died before the action was brought before the Lords of Council on 2 December 1502.
The decision of the Lords of Council follows:
2 December 1502: Bruce of Clakmannan. Menteith of Caverea. Contract of marriage. Failure to procure dispensation. Action by David Bruse, younger of Clakmannane, against John Menteith of Caverca “for the wrangas postponing and differing til raise and bring hame ane dispesacione fra the Court of Rome for the completing and solempnyng of lauchfull matrimone betuex sade Jhone and Marione Bruse, dochter to the sade David Bruse, elder, and sister to David Bruse, younger,eftir the forme of the indenturis.” The pursuer compearing by Edward and Robert the Bruse, his procurators, and the defender personally, the Lords ordain the said John to deliver to the said David “the authentic copy under the transsumpt of the sade Marione conjunct feftment of the sadis landis of Caverca, togidder with the rentalling of the takkis of the landis of Dalgrane. The Colzare Raw myln, Petbaithle, with the auchtene part of Maistertoune, for als mony termes and yeris as he has of the sammyn and prodicit before the Lordis; and als decretis and deliveris the sade Jhone til be qwyt of the clame of five hundreith merkis clamyt be umquhile David Bruse, elder of Clakmannan. And David Bruse, yonger, for their costis , dampnage and expensis, because he failyeit til mak resignation of his landis and til bring hame the sade dispensacion, sen that the sade Jhone of Menteith has producit and lauchfull resignacione and conjunct, feftment. Dispensacione and ane sufficient rentaling of the sade Marione in presens of the sadid Lordis.”
Acts of the Lords of Council in Civil Causes II: 616
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000047784453&view=...
Okay, so just to be sure I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying Balfour Paul has got it wrong here?
The Scots Peerage, Vol. III. Edinburgh: David Douglas. pp. 467–468. ISBN 0-9711966-2-1.
Sir David Bruce, eldest son of the second marriage, succeeded his father in Clackmannan, to the exclusion of his elder half-brother Robert and his son David. On 11 September 1497 he had a Crown charter of Clackmannan, subject to his father's liferent and that of his mother Mariota Herries. On 3 February 1506-7 he had a Crown charter erecting Clackmannan, with other lands, into a barony, when he is styled ' David Bruis de Clackmannan miles, Alius quondam David Bruce de Clackmannan,' his nephew, David Bruce of Rait, having resigned any interest he might have in it. The estate must have been a very large one, from the enumeration of the lands incorporated in the barony. He had a licence to hold a fair at Clackmannan on the Feast of St. Bartholomew annually, 18 April 1517, which was confirmed 18 September 1542. Sir David was on an assize 1 December 1554, On 21 January 1550-51 he gave a charter to Robert Bruce, his grandson and apparent heir, and Janet Levingstone, his wife, of an annualrent of forty merks, and was alive 12 June 1556, when he gave a precept of sasine for infefting Robert Bruce, brother- german of the deceased Mr. John Bruce, in the lands of Wester Kennet. Sir David married Jean, daughter of Sir Patrick Blacadder of Tulliallan, by whom he had issue five sons and four daughters, viz. : —
1.John, died vita patris before 14 February 1550-51, but carried on the line of the Clackmannan family, which became extinct in the male line on the death, 8 July 1772, of Henry Bruce, fifteenth and last Baron.
2. Edward, of Blairhall born 1505, had a charter of the lands of Easter Kennet, 1537, on the resignation of Robert Brady. This charter was confirmed11 by James v. 24 April 1537. He had also a charter 12 from the Abbot of Culross 7 June 1540, confirmed 15 February 1542-43, of the lands of Bergady and two parts of the Shire mills
3. David, of Green. He was ancestor of the Bruces of Kennet, Lords Balfour of Burleigh. (See vol. i. p. 547.)
4. Robert, of Lynmylne. The Swedish Bruces ennobled in 1668 were probably descended from him.
5. Patrick, of Valleyfield. He had a charter of Valley-field from the Commendator of Culross, 8 June 1540, to himself and Margaret Falconer, his wife, which was confirmed7 15 February 1542-43. In this confirmation charter he is called son of Sir David Bruce of Clackmannan, Knight. He is said to have resigned the lands and barony of Valleyfield to James Preston of Craigmillar, and to have died s. p., leaving the estate of Green to his brother David ; but, on the other hand, David appears as a witness to a charter under the designation 'of ' de Greyne,' 30 January 1536-37. He is also a witness to a precept of sasine 6 November 1536, and in an ancient MS. pedigree, endorsed 1640, Patrick is styled of Valleyfield,' and David is called ' of Greyne.' It would, on the whole, seem that Patrick never possessed Green, but only Valleyfield.
6. Elizabeth, married, first, to Alexander Dundas of Fingask ; they had a charter of Cottis, 8 August 1542. She was married, secondly, to Robert Oolless of Bonneymoon.
7. Marion, married, first, about 1500, to John Menteith of Caverkay ; secondly, to Robert Bruce of Airth ; and thirdly, to Magnus Sinclair of Kynninmonth, second son 7 of William, Lord Sinclair. She died July 1575; will dated at Dysart 18 June 1575, confirmed 11 August 1575.8
8. Agnes, married to John Elphinstone, parson of Invernochty, with issue.
9. Alison, married to Sir James Oolville of Ochiltree, circa 1530. They had a charter of East Wemyss 20 August 1533.
So, creating
Marion Bruce
d/o Sir David Bruce, 6th Baron of Clackmannan & Rate & Mariot "Marion" Herries
x John Menteith of Caverkay
Have I understood you correctly?
If so - is Marion Bruce Menteith the daughter Balfour Paul calls Margaret (below) who he says is mentioned in a 1477 deed, or is she another daughter?
Sir David married, secondly, Mariota, daughter of John Herries of Terregles, and widow of Sir David Stewart of Rosyth. In a Grown charter of his estate of Clackmannan in favour of his son David, a life-rent is reserved to himself and Dame Mariota Herries, his spouse, of date 11 September 1497. He died about 1500, leaving issue by his second wife two sons and two daughters, viz. : —
2. Sir David, succeeded in Clackmannan.
3. Alexander, witnessed the charter of 29 November 1490 mentioned above.
4. Margaret, mentioned in a deed, 1477.
5. Christian, married to Sir James Shaw of Sauchie.
6 & 7. Sir David is said to have had two more sons by his second wife, ancestors respectively of the Bruces of Ham and Standstill, Caithness.
https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun03paul/page/470/mode/1u...
Regarding her birth date - I'm assuming the references to a marriage contract here:
2 December 1502: Bruce of Clakmannan. Menteith of Caverea. Contract of marriage. Failure to procure dispensation. Action by David Bruse, younger of Clakmannane, against John Menteith of Caverca “for the wrangas postponing and differing til raise and bring hame ane dispesacione fra the Court of Rome for the completing and solempnyng of lauchfull matrimone betuex sade Jhone and Marione Bruse, dochter to the sade David Bruse, elder, and sister to David Bruse, younger,eftir the forme of the indenturis.”
should mean that we can assume she's at least 18 in 1502? ie birth date before 1484?
Private User says
The author of the Scots Peerage account of the family of David Bruce of Clackmannan (elder) seems to have missed Marion Bruce entirely. The place and date or year of her birth are not known, and the name of her mother has not been identified.
In view of the fact that her father and his second wife Mariota Herries are mentioned in a charter dated 11 September 1497 it is tempting to identify her as the daughter of the first wife Janet Stirling, after all Marion might already have been a married woman in 1502, but it might be safer to identify her as the daughter of an unknown mother.
Neil, wrt above - if Balfour Paul's data is correct, and a daughter of Mariota Herries is mentioned in a 1477 charter, then Mariota Herries has been the wife since at least then.
But, as you say, we don't know how old the Marion mentioned in 1502 is at the time - she might have been 80 :-) so I'll make her mother NN.