Somerled's DNA from triangulation

And there is growing evidence which i am sorting out Somerled was a haplo E. What do we know of Somerled's paternal line going back 3 to 6 generations? He must have connected to black Pictish Kings as confirmed by Cornelius Tacitus and other Moorish texts being translated to English. The Haplo Rs cannot demonstrate concrete connection with Somerled as his descendants and we dont know who or what Somerled is as his body was never found/ tested. If the Rs are so confident Somerled was an R- let them show all Geni members who Somerled's forefathers were going back at least 6 generations back in time circa AD 800 to 1,000. Ken MacAlpin d. AD 900 was called the NIGER for a reason- he was black. The word Niger is a place in Africa and river- and means God or Authority in the Yoruba and ancient black Hebrew texts.

And i undertake as a barrister to forward. On James b 1788 i am close to responding to your queries.

Wilton, you have stated that the peerage stopped tracking his line because James married a black woman. Why would the peerage have cared?

According to yourself Wilton, James was black; as were all the MacDonalds in your view.

Peter, he just won't (can't?) let go of that obsession, because it seems to be intimately tied into his self-concept.

As for the rest of us, *we* don't have to believe it. There is plenty of evidence that Europe has been predominantly "white" for an absolute minimum of a thousand years and probably many times that. Take the Bayeux Tapestry, for instance, reasonably dated to the 1070s and celebrating the victory of William and his (Norse-derived) Normans over Harold II and his Saxons. You will not find a single Black face in it from one end to the other. (You *will* find a reference to a, probably sexual, scandal that was common knowledge at the time but has long since been forgotten.)

Or take the various Books of Hours, very popular with the nobility from c. 1250 to c. 1650 (give or take a bit either end). The illustrations show saints and angels, princes, prelates and peasants - and just about every single one of them, bar occasionally one of the Three Magi, is "white". (There developed a tradition in the later Middle Ages that Balthazar, the one of the Three Magi/Kings who presented the myrrh, was a Black African. And yes, by then they knew what Black Africans looked like, and rendered him with reasonable accuracy.)

We do not need to know Somerled's forefathers. We know his *descendants*, numbering in the tens of thousands. The vast majority of those who have been tested have come up R1a and/or closely related subclades of that haplogroup.

R1*a* is not the commonest haplotype in Western Europe - R1*b* is. And for it to be *that* common, it must have been there for a *very* long time, several thousand years at least.

The Romans named the Picts (we do not know what the "Picts" called *themselves*) because of their habit of painting/tattooing themselves blue with woad-based dyes. They were the "Painted People", to the Romans. Woad shows up very well on light skins, not so well on dark skins. (Australian Aborigines use white clay for skin designs, for essentially this reason.)

Just because someone acquired the byname "the Black" doesn't necessarily mean that they *were* Black in the modern understanding of the word. Thorfinn Sigurdarsson, greatest of the Norse Jarls of Orkney and a contemporary of Macbeth, is thought to have been called "the Black" because he was black-haired and a very doughty fighter. (He was also biologically at least three-fourths and probably seven-eighths Celt. And the Celts tended - as both Greeks and Romans knew and reported - to great stature, very fair skin and, usually, blond or red hair.) The "Black Douglas" was so called, not from his complexion, but from his bad temper and violent disposition - "By and rade the Black Douglas, And wow but he was rough!"

"White", being a slippery concept, is here defined as "lighter than the average brown paper bag".

Great points Maven. To add, Somerled's DNA from triangulation is possible as lines that clear lines descend from him. The MacDonald Chiefly Line which is ddescended from Donald son of Ragnall son of Somerled and also the MacDougall liine which is decended from Somerled’s son Dougall. This research has been conducted at multiple Universities including most recently the University of Strathclyde.

It is a clear and shut case. Guess we can all move on :)

Wilton to your statement "If the Rs are so confident Somerled was an R- let them show all Geni members who Somerled's forefathers were going back at least 6 generations back in time...”

The answer to this is very simple, nobody knows what Somerled’s paternal line was that far back. The only thing records indicate is that Somerled was the son of Giillebride, grandson of Gilleadamnan.

Fortunately, we do know a lot about the descendants of Somerled and the legacies which they have left behind (along with documentation and paper trails to current Chiefly Lines). The documentation and paper trails of descendants of Somerled’s direct paternal lines also have matching DNA, luckily this has been studied and verified at the University level.

And all my wife's Haplo R male relatives - with a mountain of records as far as the eyes can see with photo - are all from the Caucasus mountains - and they are all Slavic- Poles/ Ukrainians again from the Caucasus and they accept this. All of them.

Dr. Wilton McDonald II - Attorney & Barrister

What's your Gedmatch Kit #? I see you've made your matches Public. Would you do the same on your father's profile? What was the others Surnames you genetically lean towards for YDna? Any Gedmatch kits for your closet relatives would help build your DNA Tree.

As of right now that's what Im having to do. There was thought to be two John Franklin Skinner and now it appears to be four smashed towards my lines! It's an Uncles line. After I'm done with that,both sides of my parents have the same Surnames if Skinner and the YDna for both lines have two different ones being presented.

After that I'm working again on more McDonald's and my McDaniels as well as my Dallas lines. Those are my Jamican lines and mixed-race.

There's two types of trees,your genetic tree and your paper trail tree. Sometimes you can prove or disprove things by using both. By looking at the Surnames of your closet Y-match can lead to the why. What's your Yfull kit #?

Private User

I commented on your MTA thread. I read it and was gathering information to respond, but it was deleted. Do not sure why?

Wilton, you have replied with a rather lengthy post that has not addressed the current evidence available...wich is the Clan MacDonald Chiefly lines and that of the MacDougalls have documented paper trails that link with one another and which have been confirmed by Y DNA testing to be R1A and line up with matching results to one another in the timeframes expected from both their paper trails and Y DNA testing. This is a clear textbook case of how paper trail documentation and DNA testing can be combined for the benefit of genealogical purposes.

From reading your reply Wilton, you have presented ZERO evidence that contradicts the research that has been conducted that show that Somerled’s paternal line was R1A. You instead focus on giving your opinion with ZERO evidence to support it. You instead attempt to throw a number of assertions that have no evidence to support them, which concludes that there was a world wide conspiracy that saw for direct paternal line overthrown with what would have have to have been an absolutely stunning coordinated military campaign to have been able to achieve what you are claiming. And then instead of the victorious force (you have labeled the R Haplogroup faction) writing of their success, they recreated a history that saw persons of matching Y DNA R Haplogroups be placed into the families across Europe (and I assume the rest of the world) to assume their identities. This even went so far as to place multiple families into place to assume the identify of the direct paternal descendants of Somerled who died in 1164; these persons must have been very carefully picked, as they needed to match one another through a most common direct paternal ancestor ca 1110 (a very tricky thing to do with the technology available when this assumption of identities occurred).
Further to this, with all the effort that occurred to have this assumption of identities across the world and “rewriting” of history, these R Haplogroup conquers decided to leave portraits of E Haplogroup kings in Scotland hidden in Holyrood Place and similar portraits/painting of Icons in Russia?
Wow…that is quite a Tale indeed.

Amber Collins- GED- RY5777771 and dad's - TY1299633. My yfull is YF97941 and so amazing apart from the actual African Y cousin i met in Africa which is God leading me out of 1.4 billion i found 1 big Y cousin Philippe Stephany who shares Hebrew Shemitic YAHYA DNA with me and is from the Congo- 6 generations and mom is Malagasy. Philippe has strongest ties on his Y with Ireland and Normandy/ France. Those are his strongest Y cousins - non African.

I also noticed only 1 other Congo match with surname Bosco and did a bit of digging and Mr Bosco has Scottish ties going back 800 to 1000 years. Wow indeed.

Peter Macdonald- you have presented zero evidence of your direct ties to Somerled. I'm not talking about someone tested 200 to 500 years after Somerled supposedly died. What is your DIRECT link to Somerled? And who were Somerled's parents ? I really need to know who Somerled's parents and grandparents , great grands were? I'm dealing with my own line - i AM. But your R line remains as the good Doctor who manages Clan Donald says- "IFFY" and IFFY cannot be used as strong evidence / link to anything my friend.

Annber Lynn Collins You saw my information, correct?

There was no discussion in that thread, so after several days of it being there, no reason to remain.

Dr. Wilton McDonald II - Attorney & Barrister Your mom has an unknown Campbell line, correct? What do you know of it?

Wilton, if you are saying that you are a direct paternal descendant of Somerled, you are incorrect. There is a very large body of evidence that supports this fact. Somerled’s descendants were R1A and have the documented paper trails and matching Y DNA results to one another to back this up.

You have zero evidence to support your claim to be a direct descent of Somerled. I have addressed in my previous what you have attempted to piece together to culturally appropriate Somerled from Gaelic Culture. Relying upon a worldwide conspiracy as the main piece of “evidence” to support your claim. Please feel free to address any of the points I presented in my last post to prove me wrong.

Karrie- some Indians came to the Caribbean and some adopted English names but my mom's family kept their names as far as i know/ can tell. No connections to Campbells on mom's line. They are all Indians.

Peter Macdonald - i am trying to meet you half way- the best way forward is to try and triangulate Y matches for Somerled's parents. I feel the Rs will fade into obscurity and i think deep down you do as well hence the reason you prefer to look at Somerled's descendants vs ancestors. Let's focus the conversation on the ancestral line of Somerled to see where we meet up. Thank God once more for Russian black Icons and the black medieval figures revealed in Europe which are non African.

Private User

When I'm tagged, it doesn't notify me. I've tried changing settings. I had to go looking at the old thread you tagged me on and then search for that thread. I saw another person commented a ?.So,try again. I think the notification could be improved on Geni when my name is tagged, with which thread. I do follow a lot of threads as well. So,if interested, post again.

I just cited chapter and verse on medieval art that shows "white" Europeans everywhere and Black Europeans nowhere before (very roughly) 1600.

Are you gong to claim a vast international art fraud conspiracy on top of your other conspiracy theories? Pull the other leg, it's got bells on.

I would also like to remind you, Dr. Wilton, that Peter MacDonald has repeatedly said that he ***IS NOT*** a direct male-line descendant of Somerled. Your demanding that he "prove" what *he himself says* is NOT SO is distraction at best and rancid baloney at worst.

All that "from the Caucusus" beeswax is old, obsolete, 19th century theory that has been superseded by tons and tons of more recent research which suggests the *steppes*, not the Caucasus, as the ancestral homeland of the various R clades - and not only the R clades. There's also I, J, G and a smattering of others. There are NOT two and only two Y-DNA haplotypes, though it sounds very much as though you think there *are*.

As for your "black Pictish kings", WHEN and IF someone unearths that "secret cache" and publicly publishes HIGH-DEFINITION COLOR PHOTOGRAPHS of the alleged portraits, *not* merely crude pencil sketches, you may *possibly* have a point.

Your merely saying things are so does not make them so. Especially when your say-sos are so easily disproved.

Mavern we are at a major crossroads in our history. The eclipse is a warning.

Based on everything i have read and there are many black Hebrews uniting as wel speak- there has been a cover up of tremendous magnitude.

Dr John Johnson - the author of Negro Rulers of Scotland and the British Isles was a theologian and US soldier. I'm in touch with his estate and they remina tight lipped. Off the record- he found a way to hack into the picture archives of actual portraits / over 10,000 pieces of BLACK EUROPEAN art held at Castle Holyroodhouse in Scotland.

If you purchase Dr Johnson's book have a look at the sketches - Dr Johnson paid an artist to sketch from Ken MacAlpin the NIGER- and why would Ken MacAlpin be called that --a place in Africa, an African river. It means holy , God and Authority in the ancient Hebrew and Yoruba language. Not that foul word Noah Webster imported into the dictionary with an extra g. The word Niger means God.

And there are other sketches rolling forward to Queen Victoria. Very good book to read and according to the estate- even tight lipped as how the late father got acces to these portraits ?? They say the book is solid in its claims as to whitewashed black history of Europe and this impacts everything we are talking about here.

Perhaps Somerled never existed ? Like King Arthur and the Anglo Saxon Chronicles - based on copies of unknown documents- perhaps Somerled was based on a direct descendant of the great black Pictish king Ken MacAlpin who died about 300 years before Somerled in Scotland / UK.

Amen and amen to that.

Just because something gets published doesn't mean it's necessarily true. There's a lot of absolute bushwah in print, from Velikovsky's crackpottery to faked-up "cod" genealogies flattering various families with "evidence" that their ancestry was more glamorous than it was, to deliberate and intentional hoaxes. to....

I took four years of Latin in high school, so I know bloody well that "Niger" in reference to a European ruler is Latin for "Black". But I have also pointed out that dark skin is *not the only reason* why someone would be referred to in that way. You refuse to admit that there could *possibly* be any other reason. (For much of the medieval period, the *only* literate people were the clergy - and they wrote in Latin.)

If Somerled never existed, what on earth is the point of blathering about being "descended from him"?

Wilton, if this supposed overthrow of the E Haplogroups across Europe (and the rest of the world) took place with the lengths of coordination for a worldwide “cover-up” that would have occurred, why on Earth would these R Haplogroup victors leave "actual portraits / over 10,000 pieces of BLACK EUROPEAN art held at Castle Holyroodhouse in Scotland.” and "other sketches rolling forward to Queen Victoria.”??

For the record Wilton, in the book by Dr John Johnson, "Negro Rulers of Scotland and the British Isles”, does the author state that he "found a way to hack into the picture archives of actual portraits / over 10,000 pieces of BLACK EUROPEAN art held at Castle Holyroodhouse in Scotland.” or is this a “narrative” which you have added?

Finally, for the record, Somerled did exist however does certainly not have the ancestral paternal line which you have attributed to him. As I stated in posts above "The only thing records indicate is that Somerled was the son of Giillebride, grandson of Gilleadamnan.” any claimed ancestry beyond that has no documentation to support it.

The first appearance in any published form of any variation of "Niger" for any river in Africa seems to have been in the works of Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria (c. 100 to c. 170 CE), who mentioned two interior rivers other than the Nile, as the "Geir" (or "Gir") and the "Nigeir" (the latter also seen as "Nigir"). Where he got the names, and where, even, he got reports of the watercourses, we do not know - possibly from the Berbers?

The river has had many names:
Fula: Maayo Jaaliba
Manding: Jeliba ߖߋ߬ߟߌߓߊ߬ or Joliba ߖߏ߬ߟߌߓߊ߬ "great river"
Tuareg: Eġərəw n-Igərǝwăn ⴴⵔⵓ ⵏ ⴴⵔⵓⵏ "river of rivers"
Songhay: Isa "the river"
Zarma: Isa Beeri "great river"[15]
Hausa: Kwara كوَرَ (which provided the name "Quorra" to early European explorers)
Nupe: Èdù
Yoruba: Ọya "named after the Yoruba goddess Ọya, who is believed to embody the river"
Igbo: Orimiri or Orimili "great water"
Ijaw: Toru Beni "the river water"

Resemblance to the Latin "Niger", meaning "black", is probably coincidental, as the Niger is a remarkably clear - not black or dark - river.

Dr. Wilton, I hope you are not still spreading the "Putin said this" hoax about Serbian (*not* Russian) icons "proving" that Jesus, his disciples, et al, were black men. That hoax was exposed a short while ago as the work of some clever fraudsters.

Putin did not, in fact, say anything of the kind, and did not, in fact, display the Serbian icons - he presented a quite different icon to his military commanders and made no reference whatsoever to the ethnicity of any figures in it.

As to what the Serbian, or other, icons do or do not show, it helps to have some understanding of artistic materials (which, as a onetime practicing artist, it happens I do). Certain pre-modern pigments can behave quite bizarrely over time and with exposure to environmental factors, including going quite black. Varnishes will darken over time, sometimes in less than a century. Paintings of any kind that are continually exposed to the atmosphere will pick up layers of dirt and grime and soot, especially when the only heat source is wood and the only light source is candles. And, cleaning and restoring paintings is so difficult and challenging that if it cannot be done without damaging the artwork, it is best not done at all. ("Do Not Try This At Home!")

As to what *I* think was the ethnicity of Jesus, his followers, his family, et al, they were most likely standard issue Levantine, that is, Ambiguously Brown. Dark hair, dark eyes, prominent but narrow noses, paper-bag-brown skin or a bit darker, and so forth. This has been the Levantine phenotype from time out of mind. Of course, this isn't often seen in pre-modern European art due to people's habit of imagining their gods (and saints, and angels, and etc.) in their own - idealized - image. Even in the Wilton Diptych, St. John the Baptist is slightly tanner than everyone else, but still has golden-brown hair.

To follow up on your point about the discolourization of artwork from the time of the Rusian Icons, below is a link to the paper " “Hands off That Sacred Image!” The Vladimir Icon and Its Power “ by
Maria Sergeevna Bakatkina. Of note onn page 18:

"Renovation (Ponovlenie) and Restoration of the Icon

When the Byzantine and ancient Russian icon painters were going to write an
icon, they took a cypress or lime board and put chalky soil, called gesso, on it. First, the
gesso was ground onto the surface. Sometimes in special cases the icon painters covered
it with gold, and then wrote on it with tempera (a paint diluted with egg yolk). They
applied fixers on top of the paint layer: boiled linseed oil followed by varnish to protect
the painting. After a hundred years, when the protective layer had been darkened by time
and dirt, the icon painters updated the icon - added tempera right on top of the previous
image, at the same time trying to maintain the old contours, which could only be guessed
under age-old dirt. Each new layer was again coated with varnish. This process was
repeated over and over for many centuries.

Anisimov explains: “Each [old Russian icon] is not just one but multiple images,
one atop the other.”27 We should not forget that for the icon of Vladimir this layering was
produced for eight centuries. The icon became a cake with several layers, full of
mysteries. What lay under the next layer? How could the historians determine what was
the most valuable layer?”

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89...

Great efforts are made to discredit the Russian icons. Once more let the numbers be your guide. If everyone was white 2000 years ago when pop was 200m and on top of that during the last 400 years blacks have been killed in the tens of millions incliding the Holocaust where murdered black Hebrews were called gypsies ......if you add it up of 8 billion you have 10 to 12 pct pure white ? I would expect number to be half at least which it clearly is not.

Joining more Hebrew sites on FB these groups are exploding in membership numbers as more blacks become woke as to our true history