Too many children

Started by Harald Tveit Alvestrand on Thursday, March 11, 2010


Profiles Mentioned:

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3/11/2010 at 10:39 PM

As the result of some recent merges, some of the profiles in this area seem to have ended up with a rather large number of children, with names duplicated between them.

I've seen two reasons for such duplication:

- The practice that, when a child dies young, a new child born afterwards is given the same name
- Perfectly normal duplication

In this case, some of the children have inconsistent birth/death dates, sometimes only one of them, and sometimes no dates at all. So it's not possible to determine what was actually the case here without checking the sources.

In merging trees, I've left the children unmerged if I had any doubt at all that they were the same child. So there's some lists that need checking - the linked profile is one of them, but not the only one.

I hope someone gets around to it (and cites the documentation....)

3/11/2010 at 11:57 PM

I have also noticed this. But the first reason you refer to should not result in more childs, because when a child dies young there are no childs after him/her or do I misunderstand you?

When I merge I like to have a similar name, the same parents of course, and at least year of birth and death. But sometimes I may have mergeded profiles if they have the same mother, father, siblings and childs, even if they do not have both birth or deadt date.

I am also suppriced to find som many people with to set of parents in here. How is this possible?

Private User
3/12/2010 at 12:13 AM

På norsk: Ja her har vi endel jobb å gjøre med sammenflettingen (merge) av denne profilen og tilhørende profiler for foreldrene og barna. Vi får gå gjennom kildene en gang til og prøve å skrive "rett" årstall for fødsel og død. Dette vil danne grunnlaget for en god anegransking.

3/12/2010 at 12:15 AM

there is simply to litle research over all.
a lot of familys had 1 , 2 and even 3 child`s with the same name.
f.eks :
nr 1 dies at birth.
nr 2 dies in early ages (birth related or accidents.
nr 3 dies laiter on.

there is a lot of exampels around in the tree of this.
so even tho the profiles have same name,there should be some recearch behind the merges.

and becose of this,i never merge profiles with out date`s or year.
unnless there is no doubt about it.

so siblings with the same name,ar not for sure the same person !

ones again,hot match should not be in geni.
it gives more issues,than it helps out.

Private User
3/12/2010 at 2:57 AM

We have a new actor (joined for just a week ago) in this area, Thor "Pelle" Egede-Nissen who so far is not responding on collaboration requests.

Could you please avoid merging in new trees before we know that a person is willing to collaborate with most of the managers in an area (a hint for you Asgeir Sonstad)

In any case. The About Me in this profile, Jens Pederssøn Schielderup is very detailed, and the manager of that profile Remi Trygve Pedersen is our Schjelderup expert, so we should trust whatever he decide, even if it includes deleting or moving of profiles and cutting connections.

3/12/2010 at 3:31 AM

OK, I'll stop merging Pelle's profiles until he responds.

It was probably a GEDCOM upload, because the tree is quite large, and had a number of different spellings of names and dates from what's already there, so doesn't seem to come from exactly the same sources as everyone else's data.

Private User
3/12/2010 at 3:59 AM

I am currently struggling his profiles in the Danish lines, - too tangled to start unmerging and found some parent connections where the patronymic name definitely not match the fathers name.

3/12/2010 at 7:27 AM

I am already collaborating with Thor Egede-Nissen. I will get the children of Jens Pederssøn Schielderup correct either during the weekend or just after. So you can send Thors merges to me and I should be able to do them as long as I am collborating with the manager(s) his profiles are getting merged into,

I am doing a course for Hol Historielag on saturday, and also have some work to do on sunday and monday, but the merges in the Schjelderup-line will be done. I have already don a lot of them withy Thors profiles already.

3/12/2010 at 8:44 AM

Yes, I`ll noticed there was something wrong here, and I want not merging anything more before it`s ok.

3/12/2010 at 12:08 PM

i`m also open to help out,since i got colaborating with Pelle.
will wait,until it is axepted to start on the merge issues made.

3/14/2010 at 4:27 PM

I see your point in waiting with merging until we are sure that most of the managers in an area will accept to colloborate Private User. This discussion made some of the challenges with geni more clear to me, and will be a little more patient in the future.

3/14/2010 at 7:28 PM

It's starting to get right. No two profiles of the same person should exist in the first two generation after Jens Pederssøn Schielderup

A couple of +-signs is still there, one is a zombie of Ann Elisabeth Nordbø: and the other is a profile belonging to Stein Wilhelm Weber who'se not answering my collaborations-requests. Have been trying since late january:

Further along Jens descendancy there are a lot of profiles not merged toghether yet, so if you can help, it will be appreciated. Please use the profilename of the profile with most managers. If in doubt give me a notice and I'll do it for you. And to those of you working with anybody in the Schjelderup-family, if you don't have collaboration with me, please ask for it. I can not help you if you're not collborating with me.

Merging is not just about merging profiles together. It is a big job getting collaboration with every profileowner. So please try to get collaboration with the first profiles you merge with a profileowner that you're not collaborating with yet.. See if the profileowner will like to merge his/her profiles to yours/ours. Then, when you have collaboration, please complete the merges. And try to keep the profiles names from the profile with the most managers.

It is a big job for us to complete the merges initiated by others. When you initiate a merge, please try to finish it too. Then we don't have to finish the job you started. That would make our lives a lot easier.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.


3/15/2010 at 7:16 AM

Sorry. My delay in replying was due to a problem with geni. Merging two profiles, mine, resulted in duplication of my brothers, parents, etc. This is a new program for me and I'm still learning how to use it.

I have no illusions that all of my data is correct and my purpose in posting to geni is, in part, to correct bad data. For the most part, if there is a conflict between my data and that of someone who is closer to the sources, I have been accepting the other person's data. The risk in that, of course, is that the data I am incorporating is wrong while mine was correct.

I have had many requests to merge or collaborate and, in the spirit of cooperation and gaining information, I have done as asked. So, now I'm confused. I do not want to create problems for anyone. If I should stop accepting merger request, please tell me.

Finally, I have been averaging about twenty requests a day and, between work and family commitments, it's taking me time to catch up. But, if you are asking me to stop responding, or to only respond to specific individuals, please let me know.

3/15/2010 at 9:54 AM

NP - things take a while to learn!

Will be happy to help sort out the duplicates once you've granted collaboration. The nice thing about a multiuser site like Geni is that you don't have to be alone in sorting things out!

3/15/2010 at 11:29 AM

The question is: Do I create problems for the rest of you when I:
1) Agree to collaborate or merge?
2) Find duplications and merge them myself?

Thor Egede-Nissen

3/15/2010 at 11:35 AM

I'm not the greatest expert, but I'll answer anyway....

1.0) no, you dont' create any problem for the rest of us by agreeing to collaborate.
1.5) As long as the merge is correct and clear, you don't create any problem by agreeing to a merge.
2) As long as the merge is clear, you don't create any problem by finding duplicates and merging them.

What is problematic is:
1) large numbers of proposed merges that hang around forever because the one who has to approve them isn't around or doesn't care

2) erroneous mergers - for instance, people with similar names who turn out NOT to be the same people.

If there are conflicts in the data, it's often better to leave them there and find documentation to figure out which is right.

Good luck!

3/15/2010 at 12:14 PM

Tusen takk!

3/16/2010 at 12:50 AM

Thor, here are some advice.

When finding duplicates that has other profileowners than yourself, please check, if possible, how active they are. It's no use to merge a profile owned by someone who was last active more than 6 months ago. That only makes problems. Especially if that profileowner doesn't have any collaborators.

Conflicts can be solved by asking someone you think can have the answer to your question. Preferably before the merge is completed. Keep in mind that it was very common 200 years ago to have several children with the exact same name. Check birth- and death-dates before merging.

The only thing, while merging, that you really have to do yourself, is completing the merges where one of your profiles is marked as living although they are dead long time ago, while the other profile it is merged with is marked as dead. Geni automatically mark profiles without a death-date/year as living when importing a gedcom. These profiles are called zombies.

Collaboration is good, so just keep on accepting those requests.

If you wander about the activity-level of a profileowner, just send him/her a message, or ask the community about that profileowners activity.

Good luck from the the grandchild of your eightcousin.


3/16/2010 at 1:47 AM

What do you do when some of the duplicates are locked, and you don`t get the permission to resolve duplicates. I think that`s frustrating.

Linda Merete

3/16/2010 at 8:18 AM

Hey Remi,

Thanks for your good advice. I will be much more careful when I initiate action.

For the most part, I have been busy responding to requests for collaboration or merger. These are all postings within the past two weeks. I assume these are active posters?

Different dates of birth or death are relatively frequent and I've been accepting those without question, because I'm in the US and don't have access to sources, expecially newer sources. However, I recognize that there has always been confusion in the records where a burial date has been substituted for a death date.

Spelling of names is and has been a problem. Some people use capital letters for last names. With respect to the "son", sønn", "sen," etc. problem, my system has been to use "sson" for any man born prior to 1500 in Norway and Sweden. Danes are always "sen." In Norway, I use "sønn" from 1500 to 1800 (unless spelled differently by the person, as in a confirmation signature) and sen after 1800. Swedes are either "sson," or "sön" and women, until the 1800s are "datter" in Norway and "dotter" in Sweden. If I need to change these rules, let me know. Place name spellings are a bit of a problem. My database has English spelling of place names: Norway instead of Norge, Denmark instead of Danmark. I can see from the mergers that this is causing confusion. Any suggestions would be appreciated, keeping in mind that it is impractical to change my entire database.

By the way, I do read and write (but very slowly) Norwegian and it's easier for me communicate in English.

Thanks again.

Thor Egede-Nissen

3/19/2010 at 5:18 PM

Linda, if you know who the manager of the locked profile are, you can send a message or try to merge, at the same time ask for collboration. If you get no response, just unlink the locked profile from the big tree. Locked profiles are usually zombies.

Thor, I use NO for Norway, DK for Denmark and so on. This is mainly an english-speking site, so english shouldn't be a problem for the active people here to understand. Don't even bother to change your entire database. Wether it says Norge, Norway or NO doesn't really matter. I change them to NO whenever I'm editing a profile.

3/21/2010 at 3:05 PM

Thanks again.

3/22/2010 at 10:35 AM

Remi, I have several of these locked "Zombies" in my tree, and I would very much like to unlink them, but I don't know how to get them unlinked! Can you please explain to me how I can do this?
Thank you!

Private User
3/23/2010 at 2:11 AM

Please don't!

If they are locked for you DOES NOT mean that they are locked for others and starting an unmerge will always create errors and chaos in the tree unless it is done as a joint action with all other managers involved.

We have the same problem with people removing real hot-matches just because they did not have access to merge, with the result that they hide these for those who have access and probably also knowledge of how to and can make a good job in merging the branches.

A pending merge is just annoying, but the parent conflicts you are creating by undoing a pending merge create parent conflicts and are blocking the view of that part of the tree and makes errors in calculating relationship paths. In general it is much better to resolve the parent conflicts you can and ask for help, like in this forum for the rest.

Be patient, as I said: a pending merge is just annoying and not an error. We just had another "problematic" manager who after almost a year of requests suddenly accepted all collaboration and family group request with makes it possible for a lot of people to clean up their issues.

We should also know that Geni soon comes with a better solution for historical and profiles zombie profiles, so we should just put those problems aside until this is released.

Have a nice day!

3/23/2010 at 10:04 AM

Erna: It's easier for me to do them myself, than try to explain what I do and how I think. So just send the link to the profiles you have problems with (or link them here in this discussion) and I (or someone else) will try to fix it.

I'm sending you a collaboration request which will make things easier.


3/23/2010 at 12:47 PM

Remi: I can find one of the "Zombies" when I try to resolve the parent conflinct in @Ida von Sachsen profile. The locked profiles are all grey and I can't see who is managing them. Do you need the names on the locked profiles too?

3/23/2010 at 12:51 PM

One of the locked profiles is named of the locked profiles is named @bertrade

3/25/2010 at 9:40 AM

Erna: No, I don't need the names of the locked profiles, but I need a link to find the right profile you have problems with, for instance like this: Ida von Sachsen

In the internet address line, remove everything after the questionmark (?) after the first long number. Then copy that link in here or send it to me as a private message, so we don't clog up this discussion with a lot of merge-requests that doesn't have anything to do with Jens P. Schielderups many children.

3/25/2010 at 10:33 AM

Harald: I think most of the mess with Jens P. Schielderups children should now be fixed.


3/26/2010 at 12:51 AM

Thanks to everyone who helped here - the tree is now in better shape!

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