Butler Family around James Butler, 9th Earl of Ormond

Started by Private User on Tuesday, November 2, 2010


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Private User
11/2/2010 at 7:16 AM

A new project is open for business for the Butler Family around James "The Lame" Butler, 9th Earl of Ormond


The project has been created for Private User and others. If anyone else is interested in this area, let us know.

If any profiles need to be added to the project, let me know.

Private User
11/2/2010 at 7:58 AM

Thanks so much Brendan! Mary

11/2/2010 at 10:21 AM

Is this the same line, do you know? I tried to trace down but didn't get very far...tree got too big when I didn't know where to go.

Pierce Butler was the second son of Sir Richard Butler, 5th Baronet, a member of the Irish Parliament. from wikipedia, Pierce is a Constitution signer

Private User
11/2/2010 at 10:27 AM

Yes, the 9th Earl of Ormonde was the 5th great-grandfather of Senator Pierce Butler of South Carolina. I sent Brendan the Family lineage the other night. Would you like a copy Anita? I have all the House of Ormonde lineages and minor branches on my Family Treemaker software, but not on Geni yet.

11/2/2010 at 11:12 AM

I see those links on the Constitution discussion, thanks. We need to get Pierce added for the Constitution project, but not necessarily today....are you part of that Mary?

Private User
11/2/2010 at 1:02 PM

Anita, Since I'm technologically-challeneged, I don't really do much merging, etc. but I provide research to various projects. I follow the Constitution Discussion but I'm not a collaborator. Let me know what I can do to help. As previously stated, I have tons of Butler family research dating from the Norman invasion to current times. Though I don't have my personal link to the House of Ormonde discovered yet (DNA says yes) , I have another very distant link through a daughter-in-law of my 3rd great-grandmother. I will add the various generations to my Geni tree through that link, and onto Pierce Butler. As far as I can tell, he is not currently on the Geni tree. Mary

11/2/2010 at 2:05 PM

Agreed Mary, I am not finding him on the tree. I did find his wife, Fanny, but got a very negative response from the manager about adding Pierce to his tree; and now I don't have access to view her tree. We will have to deal with that at some future date I guess. This is the link, if someone else can get to it: http://www.geni.com/people/Frances-Anne-Fanny-Kemble/60000000086584

If you can get everyone added, I will do merges, etc. Brendan is also great at approving merges and catching errors, so eventually we will get it done and clean!!

Private User
11/2/2010 at 2:22 PM

I am only a few generations from having him on the tree. I've been adding a skeleton lineage from a distant Butler relative to him. I'll send his link when he is there. His wife was Mary Bull Middleton, not Fanny. He should be in Geni in a few minutes. Mary

Private User
11/2/2010 at 2:55 PM

Do you know the birth or death years for Pierce Butler or Frances Kemble? That profile is gone, but there are others if you search for the name. Not sure if they are right though. Any of these look good? http://www.geni.com/search?group=everyone&names=Frances+Kemble

Private User
11/2/2010 at 3:35 PM

Pierce Butler, Signer of the US Constitution

Brendan, Here is the link I just added to my tree for Senator Pierce Butler. His wife was named Mary Bull Middleton. I 've seen the name Frances Kemble somewhere else. I will search later. Gotta go to a brithday party for a 5 year old. Mary

11/2/2010 at 3:36 PM

Will try again..this one is her, same manager, too! Frances Anne "Fanny" Butler

11/2/2010 at 3:38 PM

Franny Kemble was a HUGE Shakesperian actor in the US, born in England. She divorced Pierce, then later released a book about life on his Southern Plantation in 1839. Quite the story!


Private User
11/2/2010 at 3:40 PM

I found it. Frances Kemble was a famous English actress who married Pierce Mease-Butler, the grandson of Senator Pierce Butler. His father was James Mease and mother Sarah Butler. After his grandfather Sen. Butler disowned his only living son Thomas, he told his Mease grandsons they would inherit his estate if they changed their names to Butler. 2 of 3 did so. Mary

11/2/2010 at 3:41 PM

OH...not to confuse anyone...she married the Signers grandson...not the signer!

Private User
11/2/2010 at 3:43 PM

I added grandson Pierce and Frances Kemble to the tree in the correct place. I can send references to anyone who wants confirmation. Mary

Private User
11/2/2010 at 9:09 PM


Here's a full text of Frances Kemble Butler's book, "Journal of a Residence on a Georgian Plantation".

Private User
11/5/2010 at 11:15 AM

Hi, I am working on a different project and have been for a few years now. I have done a great deal of research on this family as I am in this direct blood line. I have information that you are welcome to from The College of Arm in London.

I do note have any evidents that Elizabeth is in fact Sybell's mother, nor that she was married to John Maupas. If you find anything while you are working ...real proof that they are married, I would love to see it. Please let me know how I can send you what I have found.

Elizabeth le Botiller (daughter of James Butler, 4th Earl of Ormond and Elizabeth Joan Beauchamp) was born 1420 in Ormond, Ireland, and died September 11, 1473 in Shrewsbury, Abbey, Shropshire, EnglandShe married John Maupas.

Children of Elizabeth le Botiller and John Maupas are:

1. +Sibell Sybell Maupas, b. 1504

* source for this is One World Tree. (This info not reliable. I have found no historical documents from the time that state who John Maupas married.)

Best regards,
Terri Rosenthal

Private User
11/5/2010 at 11:46 AM


Terri, On www.thepeerage.com, it states that this Elizabeth was married to John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury.

Private User
11/5/2010 at 11:55 AM

Hi Mary,

I know that is whats...that I part of what makes me crazy when they have her married to John Maupas. ...LOL

Give me a few days...I am getting over the flu.. : (
I need right out what I have on a smaller page. All of what I have in written out on paper that is 20" x 30" into the form that was used for the Visitations in 1633. It took days to do. I will email it to you.

Have a good day...oh and just add me to this project.

Private User
11/5/2010 at 12:20 PM

Thank you Terri. Hope you feel better soon. I look forward to building the Butler family tree. They were a big part of Irish history. I belong to The Butler Society in Ireland and have access to all their research which is extensive. Mary

Private User
11/5/2010 at 1:24 PM

Terry, I added you to the project.

If you find any profiles that you need access to, let me know and I'll add them to the project. Also, if any merges are needed, let me know.

Private User
11/5/2010 at 6:42 PM
1/2/2011 at 1:08 PM

Hi Everyone
I have been reading your posts. I am a Butler and researching my ancestors; trying to knock down my 'brickwall' in 1679 Bramshott England.
However I have a connection through FTDNA Family finder and the connection may be William Hezikiah Butler and Elizabeth Hembree and thus onto Sir Richard Butler, the fifth Baronet of Cloughgrenan.
The question I wish to ask is what is the this Butler lines DNA?



Private User
1/2/2011 at 3:41 PM

I have the DNA results for my Butler line. My family is a very close match to the Fighting Butlers of PA. Our connection is in Ireland, however, since my family did not immigrate until 1857.

The FIghting Butlers are somehow connected to the Earls of Ormonde, and Major Pierce Butler , who was in the British Army. Pierce left the British Army and settled in South Carolina. He said he was related to the Fighting Butlers. His father was Richard Butler, the 5th Bt. Cloughgrenan.

I'm going to Ireland in the spring to try and find the link between my family who I know back to c.1800 and the Bt, Cloughgrenans, a branch of the Ormondes. I would be interested in trading information and DNA results.

When Major Pierce Butler died, he had disowned his only surviving son Thomas. He left his estate to his Mease grandsons if they would change their last name to Butler. His grandsons John and Pierce Mease changed their names to Butler and inherited their grandfather's South Carolina and Georgia lands. They would not have the Butler Y-DNA but rather their Mease father's DNA. How does William Hezekiah Butler fit in to the Bt. Cloughgrenan?

1/3/2011 at 4:28 AM

Yes I recall reading about the Mease Butlers and I agree that their DNA may not match mine, but perhaps FTDNA Familyfinder may show up a connection.
From William Hezikiah to Bt. Cloughgrenan.
My contact via Familyfinder can tracer her earliest Butler to William Hezikiah Butler b. abt 1756-1774 and Elizabeth Hembree, Pendleton District, South Carolina.

see http://lindabutlerfisher.50megs.com/whats_new_1.html

see http://lindabutlerfisher.50megs.com/whats_new_2.html

William's parents are Pierce Butler and Mary Middleton

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierce_Butler

see http://www.history.army.mil/books/revwar/ss/butler.htm

Pierce Butler was the third son of Sir Richard Butler, the fifth Baronet of Cloughgrenan and a member of the Irish Parliament.

I need to look at my FTDNA Familyfinder contact's pedigree from her to William Hezekiah just to satisfy myself that it looks OK.

Having said all of the above it does not necessarily mean that I match my FTDNA Familyfinder contact's Butler connection and may be a connection with another common surname that we have but currently Butler is the common surname.

Do you have any plans to test with FTDNA Familyfinder?

I will be grateful of any information, like current Butler family members who can trace their ancestry back to Pierce Butler.

My Haplogroup is G (more precisely G2a3b1a1)

If you are going to make a trip to Ireland perhaps you should do it in conjuction with the Butler Society triennial gathering.

see http://www.butler-soc.org/index.html



Pierce Butler Mary Middleton
Sir Richard Butler, the fifth Baronet of Cloughgrenan
James Butler
Sir Thomas Butler, 3rd Baronet of Cloughgrenan
Sir Edmund Butler, 2nd Baronet (died before 1653), of Cloughgrenan
Sir Thomas Butler, 1st Baronet (d. 1642) was an Irish nobleman, the illegitimate son of Sir Edmund Butler
Sir Edmund Butler (1534 - 1602) of Cloughgrenan (and the Dullough),
James Butler, 9th Earl of Ormond and 2nd Earl of Ossory (1496 – 28 October 1546)
Piers Butler, 8th Earl of Ormond and 1st Earl of Ossory (c. 1467 – 26 August 1539),
Sir James Butler (d.1487)

Private User
1/3/2011 at 12:47 PM

Hi Allen, My Butler family's DNA is posted on FTDNA under kit N70640. It's 37 markers. I had my brother test.
The Pierce Butler (1744-1822) who married Mary Middleton is Senator Pierce Butler from South Carolina who also signed the US Constitution. You can read a lot about him on the internet. I've researched this family a great deal, and unfortunately he did not have a son named William. His only son who survived to adulthood was Thomas who he disowned, I just finished reading "Major Butler's Legacy" which is the story of 5 generations of his family in South Carolina. Very interesting.
I noticed the reference Linda Fisher used for William was an LDS post which are notoriously incorrect. You can find information about the family of Senator (Major) Pierce Butler on the internet, or I would be happy to share.
I posted Senator Pierce Butler's bio on Geni as well as his family. He is listed under the Signers of the Constitution project. Mary

Private User
1/3/2011 at 12:54 PM

Allen, We are not going to be matches on DNA because my family and the family of the Fighting Butlers are R1b1b2 haplogroup, a common British Isles haplogroup. Interesting, my maternal grandmother's father is G2a which is not very common. They are from around the Black Sea, but somehow immigrated from Germany to PA about 1750. Mary

PS I belong to The Butler Society, Are you a member?

1/4/2011 at 1:48 PM

Hi Mary - I had a look at the Linda Fisher website again, and you are correct, I can see that there is a disclaimer on the sources of the information. I check on the internet and Pierce did not have a son William!
So the the only true male decendant was Thomas the disowned son. Do you have any information on Thomas in that does he have a present day male decendant and a family tree?
Yes G2a is less that 2% of the mail population in the west and my lot seems to be from the Caucasus. It is so rare that if you get a connection they are almost automatically family, if only I could connect the documentation!
It seems to me that I can have a very close match but the common ansestor must be many hundreds of years ago because surely we would have the same surname.
Very interesting that your maternal Gfather is G2a and Germany seems to be the place. What is his surname and potted history? I have a very good match from a Weller family originally from Berlin now USA.
If it were not for a DNA match with another Butler in the UK I think I would have given up the Butler search. This butler and I have a commen ancestor about 300 - 500 years ago (perhaps). Until that contact I thought the I was a out-of-wedlock experience.
I have been a member of the Butler Soc since about 1996(?) a long time. Unfortunately the website has not improved much. I do not know why the majority of the members do not ruch to get their DNA tested, it would make life a little easier.

Private User
1/4/2011 at 6:37 PM

Hi Allen,
My maternal great-grandfather's family surname was originally Herbst. They are the G2a haplogroup. My direct lineage changed their name to Harpst about 1800. About 1750, there were 4 brothers who immigrated from Germany to Berks County PA, My 5th-great-grandfather was named Peter Herbst. I'm not sure about the brothers names, but there was Johann George Herbst, Johann David Herbst and Johann Heinrich Herbst living in the area in that timeframe. I'm assuming they are the brothers but am still looking for documentation. Since the Germans frequently named all the sons with the first name of the father, their father in Germany was probably named Johann. My 5th-gg was probably Johann Peter, and the brothers went by their second name.

As far as the family of Sen. Pierce Butler, his son Thomas married a French woman. They lived most of the time in Paris, and had four children.
Francis (Abt. 1815 -1835) Died unmarried
Louis (1817-1890) no mention of marriage in his biography
John (Abt. 1819-1880) m. Elizabeth ?? No children mentioned in bio.
Anne (Abt. 1820-1823)

So it appears that these were no descendents of Thomas Butler.
If you look at the profile on Geni of Pierce Butler, Signer of the Constitution, you can find numerous reference books, including the book "Major Butler's Legacy" which is a google book that has some pages missing, but still lots of info available.


1/5/2011 at 1:37 PM

Hi Mary - thank you for your information - poor old Thomas no male heir and disinherited.
I think I found your Herbst family in FTDNA y-search - ER6UD. Unfortunately, although we are indeed G2a's we do not match closely. We propably had a common ancester perhaps a few thousand of years ago.

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