Interesting quote from 'American Ancestors'

Started by George J. Homs on Tuesday, June 28, 2011

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Showing 1-30 of 34 posts
6/28/2011 at 5:09 AM

Winter edition of 'American Ancestors', page 28:
'Considering that Manhattan is the 'island at the center of the world', there has been remarkably little interest in the earliest permanent European settlers of the Dutch colony of New Netherland. There is no hereditary society of descendants of first settlers, as there are for other early settlements in America.'
Here's the link to the publication: http://www.americanancestors.org/uploadedFiles/American_Ancestors/C...

6/28/2011 at 5:15 AM

Send them the links to the New Amsterdam projects !

Private User
6/28/2011 at 5:47 AM

Just wondering why there is n't? Is it because it was for such a short period of time and only the English part is interesting? Dunno know just asking. At the same there is much spoken of the Dutch who went to New Amsterdam but the Belgium part is (Not here at the project) in general also not known. So it has to come from people like you and the others who do such an amazing thing to bring it up. For this especially but i also mean it in general. Same as Kwame and others or searching for slavery historie and such. I tnink it so special to have these big projects that cover a important part of history.
..

6/28/2011 at 6:08 AM

Did Belgium allready exist that time or was Belgium just a part of Holland

Private User
6/28/2011 at 6:13 AM

Well Fred I sure thought you knew what I meant....or is it because you like to show what you know? Just asking..... :-P

6/28/2011 at 6:40 AM

Geografisch ben ik niet zo op de hoogte, volgens Noord Italianen begint Afrika onder Rome, volgens Noord Nederlanders bij Limburg, maar mogelijk ooit bij België ?

6/28/2011 at 7:17 AM

George

I found the article fascinating. Are there indeed only FOUR verified passengers of first ships with descendants? Would it be possible to list that out?

I can give you a thought reaction as to "why no hereditary society" based on no research at all.

Manhattan was built as a trading center I presume on Dutch city models. It was never meant to be residential in a sense -- people built their mansions "in the suburbs" -- progressively further and further north. Or of course out to Long Island or New Jersey.

So as soon as they made any money at all they were out of the "land" and the municipality -- and in the United States, it all about the land, since we had rather a lot of it (or so the settlers thought) compared to Europe.

Now why does New Paltz have a hereditary society? New Paltz, New York is based around farmland. Manhattan never was.

Just a guess!

Someday I will link you to the article that examines a "land claim" for Trinity Church. It's pretty hilarious.

6/28/2011 at 8:19 AM

I'm not sure if that's how it was for New Amsterdam, Erica.
For sure, the main intention of the Dutch West Indies Company was simply to trade. However, later on, the powers in Holland saw it as something strategic in the relationship with the English - but not strategic enough, because they preferred to hand if over and concentrate on the Far East and Guiana.
In fact, Holland had a lot of trouble getting - and keeping - settlers over there. I think the article says it well: Holland was rich, so why go to New Netherland? Many of the settler made money, and then preferred to go back home. Perhaps that's a reason why New Amsterdam, from the start, was so 'cosmopolitan'. The Dutch wanted to go back, but the other nationalities less so. I think that the Dutch surnames remained dominant because new settlers wanted to marry into the powerful Dutch.
I sure want to list out the earliest settlers, at some point. Also, as you may have noticed, I started to list the private genealogy pages of some of these families - as they should be some reference point for people searching (rather than pick up errors from wherever).
If we could bring together the living descendants to work in this project, the project would become even more meaningful!

6/28/2011 at 8:32 AM

Do we have tables with numbers of Dutch settlers by location and date? Have we started to figure out those researching their Dutch roots, where they're located? There are Dutch surnames in upstate New York for example - later migrations I assume than the first settlements.

It's like New Paltz in a sense. There are towns that are *very* Dutch in the Hudson River Valley area. And then on out on their migration paths.

My guess is you will find many like your friend "the boss" - Dutch and Italian is a "classic" mix in New Jersey ....

6/28/2011 at 8:36 AM

I agree with you, George. Get the modern day descendants involved! But thats a task in itself.

6/28/2011 at 8:41 AM

I started with an Excel sheet, just so that I could sort things. But, it's impossible to maintain (takes too much time). I would rather hope that, at some point, we could extract the data from Geni and then start sorting.
BTW, does anyone know a software program that can translate gedcoms into a spreadsheet table? Unfortunately, .PAF is not understood by Excel :-)

6/28/2011 at 8:45 AM

You need to get with Randy Stebbing George! Or Bjorn. Or Shmuel. Or Henn. Maybe Liivi? We have a group of techies - I leave it to them.

6/28/2011 at 3:34 PM

When looking for info on New Sweden, I've run accross some info on New Amsterdam. I wonder If some of the info you may be looking for may be mixed with the swedish. Between fighting with each other the two ended up getting married to each other from time to time,

6/28/2011 at 9:25 PM

Indeed, Marvin! In fact, some Dutch were operating on behalf of the Swedes when establishing New Sweden. And, a few Swedes came first t New Amsterdam. Interesting to note is that 'Sweden' is not the Sweden we know today - but included modern Finaldand and Estonia. Here a link to a map showing Scandinavia in 1645 (Sweden in green) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Danmark-Norway_in_1646,_Treaty_of....

6/29/2011 at 8:49 AM

That explains a comment in a book I read about a Swedish farmer. when drafted, could send a farmhand in his place and that a lot of those "draftees" where Fin farm workers. (one of those "now it makes sense" moments)

The book was from the original Swedish, so the author didn't try to explain it. (it was written late 1600)

Private User
6/29/2011 at 7:39 PM

There most certainly is, and has been since 1885, a hereditary society of descendants of first settlers of the New Netherlands Colony: the Holland Society of New York (http://www.hollandsociety.com/index1.html). Membership is open to descendants in the direct male line of an ancestor who lived in New Netherland before or during 1675.

6/29/2011 at 9:18 PM

Indeed Jeffrey, the article wasn't very accurate in that respect. And, the Society's 'Halve Maen' publication seems to be a great source for genealogy too. I think that the article's writer merely wanted to highlight that more effort goes into the 18th century - which doesn't surprise me given that most living descendants will have their roots in that century, rather than in the 17th. BTW, the Holland Society and other groups are references on the New Amsterdam - Research page.

Private User
6/29/2011 at 10:09 PM

The Holland Society of New York

10/30/2016 at 12:43 PM

This is an old thread, but here goes...I don't see the Dorlandt name.

My great uncle Frank Dorland was a member of the Holland Society from way back (1940s probably). He did a lot of genealogical work on the family.

Our Dorlandt line is known back to the original immigrant Lammert Jansen Dorlandt, who came on the Bonte Koe in 1663. The other Dorlandt immigrant (Jan Gerritsen Dorlandt) came a bit earlier.

It used to be thought that they were brothers (The Dorland Family in America, Jan Dorland Cremer, 1898). Recent research has shown that they are not. Possibly cousins. I believe that Jan's Netherland roots are known. In my line Lammert's father in the Netherlands is NOT known for sure, but they may have come from around Utrecht.

I think that DNA is the best way forward, but don't know of any Dorlandt projects. My brother would be in the direct line for Y-DNA testing.

12/11/2016 at 5:59 AM
12/11/2016 at 6:03 AM

lucky #3 6000000041147805298

Bit late now, will merge tomorrow unless someone else feels the urge?

12/11/2016 at 6:03 AM
12/12/2016 at 11:52 AM

These names are all variations of the original Dutch.

Lambert/Lammert spelled both the first and last name differently over the years. Cremer in his 1898 book spelled it Lambert Janse Dorland, if memory serves. That spelling is the best known. The Barth book in 2007 spelled it Lammert Janse, saying it was more accurate.

The merge is correct in any case.

P.S. "poor quality" was a bit harsh! ;-)

LD

12/12/2016 at 2:04 PM

Liz can you give a link to Cremer's and or Barth's work?

There is now a conflict over father's name, Johannes or Gerret, going by the Janse i would think Johannes is the obvious choice.

12/12/2016 at 2:30 PM
12/12/2016 at 2:36 PM
12/13/2016 at 9:27 AM

I've seen that page.

Cremer thought Jan and Lammert were brothers, but Barth proved it is not true. Their actual relationship is still uncertain - possibly 2nd or 3rd cousins.

Barth's main argument about the errors in Cremer's book is around his lack of understanding of patronimics. Lammert's father MUST be Jans, and Jan Gerretse's father can NOT be Jans.

I've got to go out for a couple of hours, but I'll get back to you. I don't know how to merge, but I'm happy to help with the details.

Cheers!

12/13/2016 at 1:09 PM

1. I don't believe the father of Lambert Jansen Dorlandt (later americanized spelling) has been determined/verified by research.

The Barth book is on Amazon, but it is out of print and copies are expensive. I got mine from the original lot in 2007. I can provide info from or images of pages that clarify both Lammert and Jan's lines.

https://www.amazon.com/Dorland-Enigma-Solved-Revision-Genealogy/dp/...

2. For Jan Gerritsen Dorlandt, the Barth book has extensive research that has corrected a number of the relationships in the Cremer book.

Jan's father Gerritt was actually the first Dorlandt in America, bringing the young Jan with him. A number of Jan's purported siblings turned out to be siblings or cousins.

This is not my line (Lammert/Lambert is), but I'm happy to help anyone working on it.

12/13/2016 at 1:10 PM

Should read as:

"a number of Jan's purported CHILDREN turned out to be siblings or cousins"

12/13/2016 at 1:15 PM

On the link with interesting data that you found:
http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/l/u/b/Jacqueline--Lubinski/GENE2-0011....

I used both this webpage and the Barth book in trying to sort out the early Dorlandt ancestors on my ancestry.com tree. They agree fairly closely I think, but it's complicated!

Since Jan Gerritsen is not in my direct line, I finally gave up a couple of generations back from Jan. ;-)

Showing 1-30 of 34 posts

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