Matching family tree profiles for Eudon III Porhoet, de Rohan
About Eudon III Porhoet, de Rohan
Some interesting documents about Eudon III Count of Porhoet from http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.genealogy.medieval/2006-02/msg00656.html:
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
Second hand I received an observation about an entry in Genealogics.
I display Eudon III, Vicomte de Porhoet, died 1234, name of wife unknown.
Source mentioned Georges Martin, "Histoire et Genealogie des maisons de Rohan, Chabot, de Rohan-Chabot", Volume II page 32.
I have now added another source, ES Schwennicke, Volume X Tafel 13.
The observation I received maintains that this person really was known as Eudes Fitz Count or "if you prefer Eudon Fitz Count", and "he doesn't appear to ever have used a title at all".
Two sources are given, Morice 'Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Histoire de Bretagne I (1742)
Louis Rosenzweig 'Cartulaire general de Morbihan I (1895) : 206, 209-210, 215-216 (charters of Eudes Fitz Count ("Eudo filius Comitis") dated 1221, 1225, and 1231), 223-225.
If in a chart someone is called in Latin filius Comitis, should that be translated to Fitz Count? Especially as it applies to someone living in Brittany?
ES Schwennicke Volume X Tafel 13 to 24 (Tafels 13 to 24 cover the de Rohan family), shows quite a list of sources, the second source given is Georges Martin, the source on Genealogics.
Neither Morice or Rosenzweig are mentioned.
Georges Martin gives two pages with sources and those two are not mentioned either.
Georges Martin in his book explicitly mentions him as Eudon III, vicomte de Porhoet.
Schwennicke calls him Eudon III, comte de Porhoet.
I presume Eudes is French and Eudon the Breton form of that name, but as both sources use Eudon I think I should stick with Eudon. Neither Georges Martin nor ES display FitzCount or filius Comitis, and so I think I should not use that either.
Also I was told that Eudon's wife was a Marguerite, but neither Georges Marton nor ES mention a wife and so I feel I should keep the entry as I have it.
Can anyone confirm that Fitz Count is a valid naming on the continent in the 1200s?
Leo van de Pas
* From: "Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@xxxxxxx>
* Date: 15 Feb 2006 14:11:37 -0800
Dear Leo ~
English historians and genealogists translate "filius Comitis" as Fitz
Count, as in Brian Fitz Count and Henry Fitz Count. Since your
database is directed toward the English speaking world, I think "Fitz
Count" would make an acceptable "surname" for this individual. An
equally acceptable surname for him would be "de Porhoet," as he appears
to have been lord of Porhoet, although he never used Porhoet in
connection with any of his charters.
As far as his wife, Marguerite, is concerned, she is named as his widow
in a 1248 settlement ("partage") between his heirs [Reference: Morice,
Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne 1 (1742):
933-935]. The document reads as follows:
"... & quand il avendra que le doaire Margarite qui fut femme
Monseignor Eun filz le Comte escherra après la mort d'icelle, le
herbergement de la Villa Jagu & le Plessix si comme il parssiet
revendra à cely Raoul de Fougierres & à ses ers ..."
This document is dated "au jour de Samedi, apres la feste de tous les
Sainctz au mois de Novembre" in the year 1248, which translates to
Saturday, 7 November 1248. So Marguerite was living as late as 7
Elsewhere, Morice assigns Eudes Fitz Count three daughters, not four:
"Le partage des biens de la Maison de Porhoet avoir donné lieu au
différend, dont il est parlé dans ce Traité. Eudon III. du nom
Comte de Porhoet étoit mort l'an 1231, & n'avoit laissé que trois
filles de son mariage avec Marguerite Dame de la Ville-Jagu, sçavoir
Mahaut, Alienor & Marguerite de Porhoet. Il avoit marié Mahaut avec
Geoffroi Baron de Fougeres, pere de Raoul, & Alienor, avec Alain V., du
nom Vicomte de Rohan mort in 1232. Quoiqu'Alienor eut plusieurs enfans
d'Alain, elle prit une seconde alliance avec Pierre de Chemillé
Chevalier Seigneur de Brissac en Anjou. Sa soeur Marguerite épousa
Oliver Seigneur de Montauban. Ces trois hériteres eurent de longues
discussions au sujet de leur parrages: enfin par Traité passé en
présence du Duc l'an 1241, les deux tiers de la succession du Comte
Eudon fuerent adjugés à Mahaut sa fille ainée, & l'autre tiers fut
partagé entre Alienor & Marguerite." [Reference: Morice, Histoire
Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne 1 (1750): 173].
As far as the placement of the extra daughter, Alix, wife of Guy I
Mauvoisin, in this family, Ginny Wagner has related in an earlier post
that the historian Daniel Power indicates that Alix Mauvoisin occurs in
the period, 1190-1201. Morice places her as a legitimate daughter of
Eudes Fitz Count's father, Eudes (Count or Duke of Brittany) (d. c.
1185), by his 1st wife, Berthe of Brittany. But, Morice elsewhere has
assigned Count/Duke Eudes and Berthe a legitimate son, Geoffrey (who
died young), and a legitimate daughter, Alix (or Adelice), who became
Abbess of Fontevrault [Reference: Morice, Histoire Ecclesiastique et
Civil de Bretagne 1 (1750): xx-xxi (chart)]. I believe that Morice is
correct about the placement of Alix the Abbess.
As for Alix Mauvoisin, I tend towards the position that Alix, wife of
Guy I Mauvoisin, was a legitimate daughter of Count/Duke Eudes by his
2nd wife, _____ de Léon, and thus a full sister to Eudes Fitz Count.
Alix Mauvoisin was certainly a member of this family, as her son, Guy
II Mauvoisin, made settlements in 1235 and 1236 with the senior Porhoet
heir, Raoul de Fougères, regarding the Porhoet inheritance
[References: Teulet, Layettes du Trésor des Chartes 2 (1866):
294-296, 297; Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de
Bretagne 1 (1742): 890-891, 901-902]. Unfortunately, Guy II
Mauvoisin's relationship to Raoul de Fougères is not stated in any of
Insofar as Morice's statement that Eudes Fitz Count died in 1231, I
have not seen anything to document the year of death. I do note that
Morice includes a charter dated 1231 by which Eudes Fitz Count gave
property with his body to Marmoutier Abbey for the remembrance of the
anniversary of his death [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de
Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne 1 (1742): 874]. From this document,
it appears that Eudes Fitz Count was living in 1231. He was obviously
dead, however, in or before 1235, as indicated by the first settlement
of his estate between Raoul de Fougères and Guy II Mauvoisin which I
have cited above.
I might add that Eudes Fitz Count also had a full brother named Henri
who occurs with him in a charter sometime before 1195 [Reference:
Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne 1
(1742): 698]. I believe I have seen Henri in another charter with
Eudes, after which he appears to disappear from the records.
Best always, Douglas RIchardson, Salt Lake City, Utah