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Sibyl de Sully

Birthplace: Walwyns Castle, Pembroke, Wales (United Kingdom)
Death: June 01, 1325 (65-74)
Walwyns Castle, Pembroke, Wales (United Kingdom)
Immediate Family:

Daughter of Walter de Sully, II and Mabel de Sully
Wife of Guy de Brian, III
Mother of Guy de Bryan, IV; Unknown Daughter de Bryan; Unknown Son de Bryan and Ela Bryan
Sister of Raymund de Sully

Managed by: Private User
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About Sibil de Sully

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'Bryan1'Index links to: Lead / Letter

Families covered: Bryan of Cheddington, Bryan in Claire, Bryan (or Brian) of Laugharne Castle, Bryan (or Brian) of Tor Brian, Bryan (or Brian or Brien) of Walwyn's Castle [Much of the top part of this page was originally uploaded as 'BZmisc06' on 06.11.03. It was moved to this page to permit expansion.]

There are doubts concerning the early generations of this family. There were several successive heads of the family called Guy. Some web sites show just 5 generations, with the first being Guy 'Adomarus' (a 1219). Some of those sites show him to be a son of Alphonse de Brienne, Count d'Eu, but no evidence to support this has been seen. Not least because TCP (Bryan) identifies the father of Lord Bryan as "of Tor Brian, Devon", we provisionally follow those sites (including some providing advice about Laugharne Castle) and, according to a site visitor (CH, 11.04.04) who kindly brought this to our attention, a guide book about Laugharne Castle, which report that there were 7 successive Guy de Brians with the first being was ...

Guy de Brian or Bryan of Torbryan or Tor Brian (a mid-12th century) (I)

1. Guy de Brian or Bryan (II)

 The first mentioned by many sites is the following Guy who is reported as having first appeared in South Wales in about 1219. 
 A. Guy de Brian or Bryan ('Adomarus') (b c1202) (III) 

Guy de Brian or Bryan (II)

     m. Jane de la Pole named in some web sites 
 i. Guy de Brian or Bryan of Walwyn's Castle (b 1228, d c1268) (IV) 
 BE1883, which starts with this Guy, clearly reports that he had 2 wives, Eve (mother of Maud only) and the unidentified mother of the next Guy. On the grounds that, for these early years, information about a widow is often more clearly recorded than information about earlier wives, we presume that Eve was Guy's second wife. 
 m1. ?? 
 a. Sir Guy de Brian of Walwyn's Castle, Laugharne Castle, and Tor Brian (b c1254, d 1307) (V) 
 m. Sibil de Sully (dau of Walter de Sully) named in some web sites 
 (1) Sir Guy de Brian or Brien of Walwyn's Castle, Laugharne Castle, and Tor Brian (d by 1349) (VI) 
There is some confusion as to the identity of the wives of this and the next Guy. TCP (FitzPayn) reports that the first wife of Lord Briene was Joan, "da. (it is said) of Sir John de Carreu, of Carew" but TCP (Bryan) reports that Lord Briene "appears to have [married] .... Ann, or Alice, da.and h. of William Holway ....., but she possibly was his father's wife." As TCP (Bryan) reports that a "Guy de Brian ... and Alice his wife, were living 27 Jan 1343/4" and as Lord Briene is known to have married his second wife by July 1350, we suspect that Ann/Alice Holway was second wife of this Guy. For his first wife, we follow various web sites as identifying her as ... 
 m1. Wenthlian Lloyd (dau of Sir Griffith Lloyd of Anglesea) 
 (A) Guy de Brian or Briene or Bryan, Lord Bryan or Briene (d 17.08.1390) (VII) 
 As mentioned above, TCP (FitzPayn) identifies Lord Briene's first wife and mother of Elizabeth as Joan (Carrew) but, strangely, she is not mentioned in TCP (Bryan). Many web sites suggest that Elizabeth's mother was Anne Holway but, as reported above, we suspect that she was this Guy's step-mother. 
 m1. Joan Carew (probably dau of Sir John Carew of Carew) 
 (i) Elizabeth de Brien 
 m. (before 10.1354) Robert de Grey, later FitzPayn of Cherlton-Grey (d 21.05.1393) 
 m2. (before 10.07.1350) Elizabeth Montacute (d 31.05.1359, dau of William Montacute, 1st Earl of Salisbury) 
(ii) Sir Guy de Briene (dvp 1386) 
 m. Alice de Bures (a 01.1393, dau of Sir Roibert de Bures of Bures St. Mary) 
 (a) Philippe or Alice de Briene (b c1378, dsp 1407/8) 
 m1. John Devereux, 2nd Lord (or John de Ros) 
 m2. Sir Henry le Scrope 
 (b) Elizabeth de Briene (b c1380) 
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  • Archaeologia Cambrensis : a record of the antiquities of Wales and its Marches and the journal of the Cambrian Archaeological Association (1846)
  • Pg.7
  • Morgan was alive in 1206, and dead in 1209, so that he probably died in 1207-8 ; in which case, if only of age at his father's presumed death, he would have been seventy-nine years old. The Welsh pedigrees marry Morgan to Wenllian, daughter of Ivor Bach, and give him, besides Lleisan and Morgan-Gam, five sons and two daughters.
  • V. Lleisan ap Morgan, lord of Avene, was no doubt of age in 1204, when he was in command of two hundred Welshmen : ....
  • Pg.8
  • .... Lleisan seems to have died, without issue, before 1228, leaving his brother Morgan his heir.
  • V. 2. Morgan ap Morgan, the next lord of Avene, was no doubt the well known Morgan Gam (cam or gam meaning "the crooked," — camus, and applied either to bandy legs, as in the hero of Agincourt ; or, as in the present instance, to a squint caused by the loss of an eye). When a son bore his father's name, it was the universal custom in Wales to give him a to-name by way of distinction ; and this was usually derived from some personal peculiarity, as "Vachan" or "Bach" (the less), "Tew" (the fat), "Coch" (the red), "Ddu" (the black) ; all of which, and many others, were in frequent use. This practice makes it almost certain that Morgan ap Morgan bore some distinguishing epithet, and highly probable that he was the Morgan Gam of the Margam charters. ....
  • Pg.9
  • In his confirmation charter to Margam, reprinted here, Morgan ap Morgan, with his brothers Lleisan and Owen, alludes to his claims on the new castle at Newcastle, as possibly to be decided by ....
  • It is not known when Morgan Gam was born, but this event may safely be placed as early as 1180, since in 1204 his elder brother, Lleisan, was in military command. Morgan does not appear to have adopted his brother's political views, for in 1227 he was in arms against the Earl of Gloucester ; and being taken, was sent to England, and kept there till the next year. ....
  • Pg.10
  • Morgan Gam affixes his seal, as lord of Avene, to Rose Coh's charter (75, B. 40), which, though without date, cites a deed of 1234. Bishop Elias tests the charter, and he died May 1240 ; but, in truth, Morgan Gam himself died, say the Annals of Tewkesbury, in February 1240, and was buried at Margam. (Ann. de Theok. in loco.) Hence the mandate of Henry III to the Welsh chieftains in 1245 is addressed "filio Morgan Gam."
  • The patent roll of 5 Edward III (1331) adds some further information about Morgan Gam. It states that Matilda, daughter of Morgan Gam, married Gilbert de Turbervill, and had from her father in frank marriage the manor of Landimor in Gower, which was afterwards claimed by another Gilbert de Turbervill, their descendant and heir, whose elder male line ended in two co-heirs, whose representatives became, through the elder, Scurlage and Mansel ; and through the younger, De la Bere and Basset. (Rot. Pat. 5 Ed. Ill, p. 8.) This connexion with Gower is further supported by an Inquisitio p. m. of 13 Ed. II (No. 62), which shews that John de Braose had given the vills of Leisaneston and Kettehill (in Gower) to Morgan Gam.
  • Thomas de Avene's borough charter of 1349 mentions Morgan Vychan and Sir Lleisan as sons of Morgan Gam.
  • VI. Sir Lleisan ap Morgan Gam, lord of Avene. The repetition of this name in (probably) three succeeding generations, in each as Lleisan ap Morgan, and in the first two dying childless, has created considerable confusion in the genealogy. It was exceedingly popular in the family ; and its occurrence in the neighbourhood of Neath, renders very probable the claim of some of the older families in that valley to descend from the house of Avene.
  • Pg.11
  • VI. 2. MORGAN VACHAN ap Morgan Gam, lord of Avene, appears to have been next brother to, and heir of, Sir Lleisan. He is mentioned as a son of Morgan Gam in the borough charter of 1249 ; and in an extent cited by Mr. Floyd as taken on the death of Richard de Clare, about 1263-4, is said to hold half a commote in Walshery by the tenure of a heriot of his horse and arms at his decease. He was father, as it would seem, of another Lleisan. The Welsh pedigrees marry him to the heiress of Kilvey, and give him also a son called Rhys ; whence claimed descent the Lleisans of Baglan, and through them the Pryces of Briton Ferry and other families now mostly extinct. According to the Chronicle in the Archaeol Camb. (p. 282), Morgan the son of Morgan Gam, married the daughter of Walter de Sully in 1276. He seems to have died in 1288, according to the Chronicle printed in the Archceol. Camb. for 1862 (p.281), "anno 1288 obiit Margan Dominus de Avene viij idus Augusti" (6th August). ....
  • VII. LLEISAN ap Morgan Vachan, or D'Avene, lord of Avene, described as the son of Morgan Vachan in a borough charter. According to the Chronicle, Morgan, son of Morgan Gam, married, in 1276, a daughter of Walter de Sully. (Arch. Camb., 1862, p. 282.) This date is scarcely consistent with the known period of Morgan Gam, and perhaps relates to this Lleisan. ....
  • Pg.12
  • This Lleisan is regarded by Mr. Jones as the grantor of the borough charter, with seal of arms, given afterwards. Lleisan was father of John and Thomas de Avene, both mentioned in Penrice agreement of 1340. He died before 1328, when his son was lord.
  • VIII. Sir John de Avene, knight, lord of Avene, Sully, and Kilvey, so styled as witness to a local charter (75, C. 25) of 28 June, 1328, and at the head of a charter by himself on the Wednesday in Epiphany, 6 Edw. Ill, January 1333. He was therefore in possession as early as 1328. Sully, no doubt, came by Maud, daughter of Walter de Sully, either Sir John's mother or his grandmother. This manor must have come to the Avenes between 1315 and 1328, since at the former date it was held by William de Briwes, probably by marriage with Elizabeth, daughter of Raymond de Sully, How the acquisition was made, whether by inheritance on Elizabeth dying childless, or by purchase from her and De Briwes, is not known.
  • Pg.19
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Sibil de Sully's Timeline

Walwyns Castle, Pembroke, Wales (United Kingdom)
June 1, 1289
Walwyn's Castle, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Haverfordwest, Pembrokeshire, , Wales
June 1, 1325
Age 70
Walwyns Castle, Pembroke, Wales (United Kingdom)