Ansela Campher (van de Kaap), SM/PROG - The mother of Ansela Campher (van de Kaap)

Hello Petrie
Not quite sure I understand what you are saying - her mother was from Timor - I do not see a reference to Angola. Can you explain?

Have a look at what has been written about her at

- http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g8/p8148.htm

- she was born in bondage - the child of two people who were in bondage - her mother Inabe or Ansela from Timor and her father Amsoeboe (Clasius) Paaij Moor from Timor.

Private User van you comment please?

There were probably 2 or more Angela v d Kaap .
Angolan slaves were imported around 1654 for Jan van Riebeek they were taken from a Portugees ship by the VOCship capitain.

Hello June

My source is Ansela van de Caap, SM/PROG this morning. That webpage has the following as heading, and seemingly as major heading:

"Ansela Campher, SM/PROG
This is the Master Profile for Ansela Campher, SM/PROG.
Curator Note from June Barnes (2/7/2012)"

Under what apparently is a subheading titled "history" (in small type and not with a capital "H") the following appears:

"Ansela was a former slave who was freed by Lorenz CAMPHER - they lived on the farm Murasie near Koelenhof.
Information from History of Muratie Wine Estate
Ansela was born in the Castle (Cape Town) - the child of a black Angolan girl and a soldier based at the Cape. Ansela met Lourens Campher whilst she was tending to the gardens in and around the castle. Campher moved out to the farmland given to him by Governor van der Stel. From 1685 - 1699 Campher used to walk on foot to Cape Town to visit Ansela in the slave quarters. During this time Ansela had 3 children by him. On the 28 June 1699, after having been christened, Ansela was set free. Campher fetched her the following day and together they were the first family to farm what would later be known as Muratie. "

This quoted information, and all that follows after it under the heading "history", is mentioned as having been taken from http://www.muratie.co.za/index.php?id=41.

From your surprised reaction it seems to me that the information taken from the Muratie website is not to be considered as part of your Curator Note of 2 July 2012.

I have been aware of both Mansell Upham's and findings on the forebears of Ansela van de Kaap as well as what is said about her parentage on the Muratie webpage. The two sets of statements are contrary. I am of the opinion that Mansell Upham's conclusions are probably more reliable than those of Muratie, being aware of much of the quality of the substantial genealogical research he has published, and considering that he had spent a substantial span of time before having his findings published. The Muratie version is the older of two and has, in my opinion, been replaced Mansell's findings. On reading
Ansela van de Caap, SM/PROG
this morning I was surprised to find the two opinions seemingly having been concatenated.

Ansela van de Kaap is important to me because her mother is the South African progenitor ("stammoeder") on my family tree.

I will appreciate your opinion.

To clarify, June: I am referring to the mother of Ansela as South African progenitor but specifically on the matrilineal line of my family tree.

Interesting

Just for further clarity, June, the fourth last sentence must read: "The Muratie version is the older of the two and has, in my opinion, been replaced BY Mansell's finding."

Thank you Petrie - I have cleaned it up and people can read further at the muratie web pages using the link. I agree re Mansell's findings and we should base our information on his information. This is definitely the sort of collaboration needed on Geni! Thank you.

Bravo!

This reference to the First Fifty Years project concur with Timor as the origin of her parents:
http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g8/p8148.htm
Evidence provided there originated from Mansell Upham.

I think you will see that that information and link is in the about field Johann!

Oops - didn't notice. Thanks!

No Worries Johann|!

Thank you, June. That clarifies matters. Kind regards.

Timely update on FFY project -

http://www.e-family.co.za/remarkablewriting/PaiTimor.pdf

"... a new ground-breaking article ...

by Mansell Upham entitled “PAI TIMOR the ‘accomodatory’ life and times
of a 17th century family from Timor exiled to Java, Mauritius & the Cape
of Good Hope”. This is a detailed inquiry into a deracinated Timorese
family whose descendants effectively ‘colour’ a number of major
colonially induced South African families of European (German, Dutch,
Danish and Swedish) origin: BLOM, CAMPHER, DE JAGER, ERASMUS, KRüGEL, PUTTER, VAN DER SWAAN and VAN WYK. The shared ancestry of 4 important but mysterious Cape-born ‘founding mothers’, Catharina de Beer, Hermina Carelse, Maria Elisabeth Jooste and Ansela ‘van de Caab’ who have defied detection for decades and frustrated many an ardent
researcher/genealogist, is finally unravelled ...
"

This turns everything on its head - from what Mansell has written it seems that Ansela [Ansela Campher (van de Kaap), SM/PROG } was originally called Baauw - one of the two daughters that arrived with their parents from Timor -

"On 20 March 1676 Amsoeboe, his wife Inabe and two daughters Iba and Baauw – a politically exiled, but un‐enslaved, family from Timor is sent from Batavia [Jakarta on the Indonesian island of Java] on the hooker Goudvink 3 to Mauritius – a VOC outpost (buitenpost) governed from the Cape of Good Hope which latter colony is itself governed from Batavia [Jakarta] on Java."

Please read this paper - it needs to be taken very seriously! See the notes I have edited and offer opinion please!!

Perhaps Amsoeboe and Inabe/Ansela should be the SV/SM - not Ansela

Am printing it out now to go and read, June. Looks like quite a find. Wow! She is my 9th ggranny.

Thank you, June, for picking this up and bringing it to our notice.

Thank you, Mansell, for bringing this long awaited and longed for report to light. We have up till now only had indirect reports of a splattering of the work you have been busy on. Now you have brought it to light. I know that I speak for many genealogists (if I may) in expressing our appreciation for you solving the riddle of, amongst others, Ansela van de Kaap, and doing it in your well-known comprehensive and well-researched manner. It does indeed belong under the banner of "Remarkable Writing".

Thank you also to Delia Robertson for creating a platform and medium through which such work can reach us - we have much appreciation for your work as well.

https://www.facebook.com/FirstFiftyYearsProject

First Fifty Years have a FaceBook page - I am sure your comments would be appreciated there Petrie!

A tricky concern has arisen for me concerning the identity of Ansela Baauw van de Kaap. Mansell Upham has convincingly argued that she is the daughter of Amsoeboe of Timor and Inabe of Timor. I have had an mtDNA test done on myself, with as outcome that my haplogroup is L0a1b2. This implies that the female line of my local female progenitor (stammoeder) is located in Africa (either East or West) and not in Indonesia. This means that either my genealogical trace (maternal line) is invalid or that Lourens Campher's partner was not Ansela Baauw van de Kaap. I have substantial trust in my genealogical record. Can it then be that Mansell Upham might be wrong? I have noticed that Delia Robertson, even though she links Lourens Campher with Ansela Baauw van de Kaap, has maintained a record of Ansela van de Caab in her Fifty-Years Project. The latter was a slave who was born ca. 1673, baptized on 19 June 1695 and on emancipated on 28 June 1695. Hardly nothing further is known about her. Is it not possible that she is the daughter of an African slave who arrived in the Cape in the 1650's or 1660's? Could she rather than Ansela Baauw not perhaps have been the partner of Lourens Campher? It is clear to me that testing of the mt-DNA of a well-designed sample of descendants of Lourens Campher can clarify the issue. What do you think: would this be a sensible project? I will appreciate your comments.

Petrie - just to be sure - You are saying that Ansela is in a direct line of mother's mother's mother's all the way to your own mother?

Yes, indeed.

Petrie Coetzee could you copy the line of your connection here so that we can all consider the situation please?

:-) This is so interesting.

@June Barnes

Thank you for your interest in this matter.

My maternal line of connection is as follows:

Floris Petrus (alias Petrie) Coetzee * 1940-11-05
Elizabeth Lessing Kruger * 1916-09-24 + 1997-11-21 x FP Coetzee
Anna Catharina Kruger * 1877-07-25 + ca. 1952 x JC Kruger
Maria Magdalena Venter * 1853-05-26 x BJ Kruger
Anna Catharina Kruger * 1833-03-29 + 1883-06-13 x J Venter
Johanna Maria Venter * 1810-04-12 x HG Kruger
Anna Catharina Myburg * <1781-10-28 x J Venter
Anna Cecilia Olivier * 1762-02-07 + 1835-06-24 x G Myburg
Anna Catharina Putter * <1728-11-07 x PA Olivier
Anna van der Swaan * <1706-06-20 x JL Putter
Agnita Campher * <1690-01-29 + 1735 x G van der Swaan
EITHER Baauw (alias Ansela) van de Kaap (born Timor) OR Ansela van de Caab * ca.1673 (OR ????) being partner of Lourens Campher

Petrie Coetzee, I think you must contact Mansell, and potentially also Muratie, to get them involved in helping to search out answers to the puzzle. I can only imagine they'll be as fascinated as we are to help you. I can see from previous posts you are quite erudite, but just yell if you want June & I to get involved with contacting them as Geni Curators together with you.

The idea of a Mitochondrial DNA study is an excellent one, to my mind. Perhaps we can get the same university (was it Pretoria - I'll go and check) that did the Appel/Botha Y DNA study to take an interest in this one.

From the Geni side - I suggest we start by trying to track down any other direct maternal line descendants. I'll do some advertising here and on our Geni FaceBook page to see if we can find any.

@Sharon Lee Doubell

What a marvelous suggestion! I would love for you and June getting involved and for me participating with you to address this matter.

We can certainly try to involve the Department of Genetics at Tukkies. They did the Y-DNA and mtDNA on a number of Afrikaans families, amongst which also Coetzee. It is from their results that I obtained my mtDNA haplogroup assessment. The study was done by Christoff Erasmus, a PhD student under Prof Jaco Greeff. They had raised the money for doing all the necessary tests on the basis of the potential scientific value of the results. We can certainly approach them to at least assist us in the research design (eg. determination of appropriate sample size) for such a project. I believe that we will ourselves need to solicit participants in the project and each participant her-/himself will have to bear her/his own costs for having the test done and then, in all probability, through one of the commercial DNA testing houses rather than by a particular university. Our interest is genealogy with genetics in assistance rather than as was the case with the, namely genetics with genealogy in assistance. But let us first do some initial structuring of such a project. Thereafter I would be willing to approach Tukkies and test their possible interest.

I am in Pretoria - where about are you and June? I am thinking of the possibility of us meeting face-to-face to decide on a way forward. If we are too dispersed, we could perhaps use Skype.

Let us first do something along these lines before we start soliciting participants. It might lead to better outcomes, but need not necessarily do so - we merely need to be a little careful and first think this through before we start running. What do you think?

Petrie and others - this is the Pretoria study: http://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/32007/Greeff_Appel... - You obviously know about it already :-)

Before we go any further - I see that your tree is not actually on Geni. For June and I to be involved as Geni Curators - and to get the advertising to other Geni members going - we'd need to refer to it, so I'm going to put the line you've given us on. Any other info - especially about female siblings - that you have, will obviously help enormously in figuring out if we have a sample set to source from on Geni.

I'm in Johannesburg some of the time, and in Port Elizabeth at other times. June is in Britain, but due for a visit here in mid year.

I think a place to start is to document proof of the relationships you list in your table Petrie. That information has to be as sound and solid as you can make it.