Would maternal lineage progenitors be included in this Project? By this I mean your mother's, mother's ... (+ 'x' generations of ancestral mothers) mother, back to the first ancestral mother who arrived in this country. She would be your mtDNA ancestral mother - the one from whom you inherit your mtDNA; the person who is the 'first in line', at the 'top' of the R-H side of your pedigree chart. In my case she was Engeltje Cornelisse vd Bout, a Rotterdam orphan girl, who was brought to the Cape by the VOC as a bride for one of the colonists (Bartholomeus Koopman) in 1688. (She was born in 1670 in Rotterdam, of unknown parents). I have traced my maternal lineage back to her, and have written an article on this matter (in conjunction with Prof. Thea de Wet of UJ), which article was published in FAMILIA 48 (4) 2011, pp. 171-176.
I would be interested to find out how many of our participants have done a similar study to find out who their maternal lineage progenitors were.
Are there other descendants of Engeltje vd Bout among our participants in this Project?
Yes, Piet - the female PROG is the oldest mother of the family to arrive - so that definitely includes all the oldest MtDNA mother ancestors to get off the boat.
Great story for poor little Engeltje - Post her profile link so we can check if we're related.
PS Do you think we should start a project to list all the MtDNA mother PROGS that have been 'proved' by DNA testing so far?
is tailor made for this .
If we have a profile for Engeltje Cornelisse vd Bout we can determine all her living descendants who are on Geni
http://www.geni.com/projects/South-African-MtDNA-Progenitors/17863 Busy creating the project - come and join, and help add text and profiles.
I'm glad you guys find this interesting! My mtDNA haplogroup (and the haplo of Thea de Wet) is U5a1a. We 'inherited' this, via our different maternal lineages, from Engeltje vd Bout. We also did 'paper trail genealogy', back to Engeltje. (Our joint effort is called 'triangulation'). My maternal lineage, back to Engeltje is: Gerria Gey van Pittius (my mother) > Gerria vd Walt (her mother) > Hester Cornelia Venter (her mother) > Martha Jacoba Maria Kruger (her mother) > Anna Catharina Jacomina van Aswegen (her mother) > Martha Maria Griezel (her mother) > Anna Maria Jacoba Pelser (her mother) > Engela Catharina Zaaijman (her mother) > Anna Maria Coopman (her mother) > Engeltje Cornelisse vd Bout (her mother). Thea de Wet's lineage, back to Engeltje is different, of course. [The lineages diverged because Thea is descended from Catharina Coopman, a sister of Anna Maria]. Only recently I discovered that Anna Maria Coopman married Pieter Zaaijman, the grandson of Eva Krotoa and Pieter Havgard (Meerhoff). The Krotoa line is not the direct line via which I inherited my mtDNA haplotype. If it was, I would have had an 'African' mtDNA haplotype. U5a1a is 'European'.
@Sharon Doubell. Hi Sharon - I see that I haven't responded to your initial reply yet. What do you mean when you say that I should post Engeltje's profile link? Do you mean that I should show in my family tree how I am descended from her? I suppose I can do that, but then I will have to undo the present faulty lineage back to Jacomina Carteniers (instead of to Engeltje) here on Geni. [A wrong connection along my maternal lineage was made a few years ago by someone who helped me, and thereafter there were mergers by other Geni users with my family tree - this included mergers with this incorrect lineage. If I should replace the incorrect lineage with the correct one, what would happen to the mergers?]. Referring to your 'PS' - I think it's a good idea, but how many people know what their mtDNA haplogroup is? Paper trail genealogy, following the maternal lineages, could achieve the results we would be looking for, and we won't have to be relying on the results of mtDNA tests. The results of mtDNA tests serve as a handy tool to confirm the correctness of paper trail genealogy - i.e. if X and Y's mtDNA results match, they should have a common female ancestor. If you can confirm this with paper trail genealogy you would be doubly sure that you have arrived at the correct result.
Accirding to Geni Piet is also related to her through a peternal line
Engeltje Cornelisz van der Bout, SM/PROG
→ Anna Maria Zaaijman, a3b4
her → Engela Catharina Zaayman, a1b1c5
her daughter → Willem Jacobus Pelser, b2c6
her son → Willem Jacobus Pelser, b2c6d3
his son → Martha Jacoba Maria Pelser, b2c6d3e4
his daughter → M. Kruger
her daughter → Hester Cornelia Venter
her daughter → Gerria Van der Walt
her daughter → G. Gey van Pittius
her daughter → P. Venter
Hi everybody! Sharon, I had a longish discussion with Peter last night. In the end I managed to upload my correct maternal line, back to Engeltje vd Bout, on my Geni Family Tree. I am still considering whether I should edit the 'incorrect' line, back to Jacomina Carteniers, but, in view of what Peter wrote directly above this, maybe I should hang on a bit. Maybe there are two or more lines, and, depending on what path you take (also via males), you end up with a different 'stammoeder', who is also genuinely in your pedigree chart. Something is not completely correct, though, and I have to find out what it is, so that I can correct it.
Thanks Piet - Peter is such a great help, isn't he?
I'm not sure that I'm following you though. You will have many many Progenitor grannies, but only one Stammoeder (married to the Venter SV/PROG), and only one mtDNA Progenitor granny (the first one on your mother's mother's mother line to enter the country.)
It isn't a huge problem to have an error on your tree, but very useful to untangle if it affects lots of people, and Geni is a great place to do that.
Thanks for your help, Sharon! Thanks, also, to Peter. I want to delete the incorrect postings back to Jacomina Carteniers, but I don't see them on my Geni Family Tree anymore. Could this be as a result of all the mergers that have taken place? In fact, I can't even access all of the family tree that I have posted on my page. To me it feels as though my page doesn't 'belong' to me anymore! Could you or Peter come and help me on my computer here at home? I would like to meet you - after all, Sharon, you are my 'Cuzzin'! :-) . I would like to treat you at the Ocean Basket or the Spur!
Hi Sharon and Peter! Sharon, I thought you were still living in Jo'burg, but now you are living in the area where our ancestors lived! I'll take you up on your invite - but I don't know when! About your offer to help me: I am mostly concerned about being able to access my paternal lineage, back to the Venter Stamvader. My lineage is: Piet R. Venter (me) > Piet R. Venter, Snr. (my dad) > Jan Adriaan Venter (my grandfather) > Jan A. Venter, Snr. (my great grandfather) > Petrus J. Venter (his father) > Johannes Hendricus Venter (his father) > Petrus Venter (his father) > Pieter Venter (his father) > Hendrik Venter (SV/PROG). I can't access this lineage; neither can I access the maternal lineage that I uploaded a few days ago. What should I do? Pl. help! Warmest regards, dear cuzz!
Piet, I'm completely puzzled. As Peter says - you are a manager on all of those profiles, so I'm wracking my brain to think what might be preventing you seeing them:
This is each profile on that paternal line - Tell me if you can click on all of them and view them?
Sharon, I now see that I can access all of these profiles when I click on the names. I have even managed to follow the line in the family tree, back to Hendrik Venter, SV/Prog. So, maybe I have been too impatient - there are loooong lines to the left and right now. I am still worried that I can't find the postings that I did a few days ago - from my mother, Gerria Gey van Pittius, back to Engeltje vd Bout. [I will try again!]. Did you know that Engeltje's daughter, Anna Maria Koopman, married Pieter Zaayman, son of Pieternella Meerhoff (vd Kaap), and grandson of Eva Krotoa? [Have you read Dalene Matthee's book]. I am descended from Anna Maria Koopman and Pieter Zaayman, through the maternal lineage. I believe that you also have a connection here? And the two of us are also descended from Petrus Venter and Martha du Plessis, i.e. we are 'double cuzzins'? I would like to send you my HistoryLink printout.