Emily Wassermann - Father

Géza Vas(Schwarcz) - Did you see the Documentation referred to above before changing Emily's father?

Please explain your interpretation of the Marriage Record listing Edward as her father.

Was he her biological father, perhaps?
Or?

--On the 1907 NY Arrival Record, she is Emma - age 16 - Nationality: Germang -- Race: Hebrew - traveling with what are apparently her parents, Aron and Therese, and 3 siblings Lina, LeopoldinaLina, , and Joseph

--On the 1910 Census she is Emma -- age 18 -- self and parents born Ger - daughter of. Aaron - living with Aaron and his wife Teresa, and siblings Hattie, Dina, and Joseph

Alex Moes - yes, accessed it -

On the 1915 NY Census the family appears twice - I have uploaded both pages to Geni. The one Emma is on is Transcribed on AncestryLibrary as Enna, age 12, the same as the Transcription on FS, but looks to me to be clearly age 22, and I see the name as Emma. She appears there with Aaron, Teresa, Dinah and Joseph - so again, seems same family.
Now that you can see the original, what do you think?

On the 1928 Marriage Record, she appears as age 28, same as her spouse. It seems to me much more likely that the lady would have shaved about 10 years off her age if she could get away with it, to not appear older than her desired husband, than that she (or he?) might lie about her father.
I also see Ida Pressburger is one of the witnesses. I assume the same one who is the sister of Emma, adding to belief it is correct marriage record for her.
Can you think of any reason for Edward to be listed as the father if it were really Aaron?

I think we can definitely say Aron was the father who raised her, at least from the time they came to the US.

But I tend to think if she named Edward her father on her marriage record then there is a good chance he was her biological father and she knew it.

We disagree.

I consider a Marriage Record in which parents are named to be a piece of evidence.

But thank you much for your thoughts on the subject.

Re: "that every time Aaron completed a census or immigration report he committed a federal crime strains my credulity." - it is no sort of crime to refer to the girl you are raising as your daughter.- whether his biological daughter or not, she was his daughter
Moreover, I have never heard that misstating a relationship on a Census to be any sort of crime. Do you have a reference for its being a federal crime?

I have relatives who were farmed out - in one case, in the obits of many, but not all, of the children in the family where she grew up she is included as a sister.
In many obits, step-children are referred to as children - often because that is how the person regarded them.

Women lying about their age is very common in my experience. Lying about their parent is totally different.

One first cousin of my father's was convincing enough in her lies about her age that her California Death Index has her born 16 years later than she was.

Yes, I was accepting that on the record of Emma's marriage, the person listed as her mather was Aron's wife.
And the person listed as father was probably the Edward who was Aron's brother, Edward.
Whether open marriage or rape, no idea.
It is my understanding that such happens.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that a child born to a married woman is legally the child of her husband, regardless of who the biological father is.

You also seem to think the fact that she is listed among their children on the Censuses and Manifest means it "has been obscured for 20 odd years at least if not down right hidden" whereas I think it might well have been openly known or alternately, it may have been known within the family, but not as openly in the community. Either way, nobody saw any reason to make an issue of it when giving info for such forms.
Legally, she was Aron's child, she was Therese's child, she was living with the family. Why should they not just list her among their children on such forms?

I have friends who had been married for over 15 years when the husband told me, don't congratulate me on this child [...] Is expecting, it isn't mine. But all three adults continued to live in the same household for a good bit longer.
in that case she eventually ended up with the father of that child, but I have no trouble imagining in other cases the original husband and wife might have resumed their relationship, and if so almost certainly would not have gone into detail when filling out a Census or etc.

If the Marriage record info was given by Ernst, he would not have known what was on the Manifest or Censuses. Even Emma likely would not have.

If I had thought it was 100% certain that she was fathered by Aron's brother Edward, I would not have started this discussion.
But I definitely do not share your views, and find myself reacting against them to the point I have difficulty reminding myself that just because you are wrong about how certain and obvious it is that Edward is not Emma's biological father does not mean it is proven that Edward is her biological father.

Last sentence of mine above reads fine to me. If you cannot make sense of it, then we are not really communicating.

Re: "fact that a child born to a married woman is legally the child of her husband" - Thought it was universal. It is possible it is not universal, but -
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/family_law/publications/family-a...
"Historically, Anglo-American law regarded marriage as the exclusive domain of parentage. Without adoption—itself a nineteenth-century American innovation—only married individuals possessed legally cognizable parent-child relationships. A married woman who gave birth to a child was treated as a legal mother, and her husband—pursuant to the marital presumption or presumption of legitimacy—was treated as a legal father. Of course, the presumption reflected the assumption that the mother’s husband was the child’s biological father. Yet it was never simply about identifying the biological parent. Historically, the rule was effectively conclusive, self-consciously operating to render contrary biological facts irrelevant."

Re: you comment that "You seem to want it both ways, why then list Eduard?"

That was basically addressed by "If the Marriage record info was given by Ernst, he would not have known what was on the Manifest or Censuses. Even Emma likely would not have."
They wanted to get married -- in all likelihood, Ernst gave the info, and as he knew it

Now I understand your confusion. You are parsing it wrong --

I say just because you are wrong about xxxxx
[With xxxxx being "how certain and obvious it is that Edward is not Emma's biological father"]

does not mean it is proven that Edward is her biological father."

Re "Aaron died just 2 months prior, Eduard never set foot in the US.
Why would Ernst think that Emma's father's name is Eduard?"

Same reason he thought her age was so much younger than it really was - that was what he was told by Emma and/or her family

-------------

Re: "The best i can come up with is that me being wrong doesn't prove your theory is correct?" --
Not sure this will make it any clearer, but --
1) you do not just push for Edward is not the father,
but raise all sorts of statements that you say are obvious and others that you say are major hurdles. -
None of which I agree are obvious or major hurdles - and so I push back against those statements
And I have to actively work to not jump from seeing all that as wrong to seeing it as saying anything about who her father was
2) and it was a question - here are two possibilities - not a theory that one was correct
emotionally I am now somewhat vested in Edward as her father simply in reaction to you pushing so hard against it with so many statements that were just blatantly false in my experience.

Wow..how did I miss this conversation. I want to thank both of you so much for your help in trying to clear this up. I have some much info that could possibly help. First of all, where did you find a wedding picture with a gown and veil and tux? I never saw that. I think it was more like a justice of the peace for my grandmother Emma and Ernst. I've only seen the group shot which I have posted, which has a 'Fred Frank, Ida Pressburger and Dina(Leopoldina..one in the same). Strange thing is that I have a cousin who refuses to give information claiming she knows nothing and refused to take a DNA test also. Also, from what my mother was told, Ernst Reinhardt was a chef (cook) on the ship and he "jumped ship" and stayed in America. Mom said she thought her mother was 10 years older than her father. Something i knew a long time. Mom's mother was on "Home Relief" and had a hard time raising my mother on her own. She had NO help from family. She worked her fingers to the bones to keep food in my moms mouth. She worked every holiday. My mom was independednt from a very young age. She got herself up for school, ate, cooked dinner, all alone.

Alex Moes -
You mentioned "the wedding foto shows a happy bride in a white gown with veil and groom in tux."

Could you give us a link to which photo you were looking at?

And if you do, then perhaps Alice can use the "Identify" feature to label folks.