Robert fitz Picot de Say

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Robert fitz Picot de Say, Lord of Clun, Vicomte

Also Known As: "Picot", "de Saye", "FitzPicot", "Robert Picot", "Robert de Avenel"
Birthdate:
Birthplace: Sai, Orne, Normandie, France
Death: 1098 (54-62)
Guilden Morden, Cambridgeshire, England
Immediate Family:

Son of Picot de Lascelles, I, High Sheriff of Cambridgeshire and Hugolina de Gernon
Husband of Adeloyse de Say, Vicomtess
Father of Cecily Esterling; Robert fitz Picot de Saye, II; William Picot de Say, Baron d'Aunay; N.N. Picot de Say; Elias Picot de Say, Lord of Clun in Shropshire and 2 others
Brother of Roger de Lascelles, of Kirkby Knowle; Sir Humphrey de Lascelles of Hinderskelfe Castle, kt; Geoffrey de Lascelles; Elise de Crispin-Peverell; Saher de Saye and 1 other

Occupation: "Sheriff of Cambridge"
Managed by: Private User
Last Updated:

About Robert fitz Picot de Say

Named as son of Robert "Picot", he became implicated in a conspiracy against king William Rufus, known as "the rebellion of 1088", and fled the country. His estates were forfeited, and given to Pain (Paganus) Peveril who was married to Robert Picot's sister, and had been the standard bearer to Robert Curthose in the Holy Land. This branch of the Picot de Say family had a long sworn loyalty to Robert Curthose, the eldest son of William the Conqueror, in the years prior whilst they lived in Normandy France, and prior to the Norman conquest of England in 1066.

Read more about the rebellion of 1088 here: [https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Rebellion_of_1088]

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Robert de Say From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_Say

Robert de Say, also called Picot, was a Norman knight who arrived in Shropshire after the Norman invasion.[1] This Robert de Say is described by an early chronicler as being of a family of very ancient, and prominent in Norman history.

Robert is most noted for the initial construction of Clun Castle, building it overlooking the lands he had seized from Edric the Wild after the invasion.[2] The family name de Say comes from the Norman village of Sai, in Orne. Robert was an important vassal of Roger of Montgomery, the 1st Earl of Shrewsbury and a major early Norman magnate.[3] Robert's daughter married the Welsh lord Cadwgan ap Bleddyn, who acquired permission to move to England, probably Clun, in 1109.[4] Robert died in 1098.[5] Robert's son, Henry, succeeded him.

Bibliography

  • Brown, Reginald Allen. (1989) Castles From The Air. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-32932-3.
  • Eyton, William. (1862) "The Castles of Shropshire and its Border." in Collectanea Archæologica: communications made to the British Archaeological Association Vol. 1. London: Longman.
  • Liddiard, Robert. (ed) (2003) Anglo Norman Castles. Woodbridge: Boydell Press.
  • Lieberman, Max. (2010) The Medieval March of Wales: The Creation and Perception of a Frontier, 1066-1283. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-76978-5.
  • Pettifer, Adrian. (1995) English Castles: A Guide by Counties. Woodbridge: Boydell Press. ISBN 978-0-85115-782-5.
  • Suppe, Frederick C. "Castle guard and the castlery of Clun," in Liddiard (ed) 2003.

References

  1. ^ Eyton 1862, p.45.
  2. ^ Pettifer, p.211; Brown, p.92.
  3. ^ Brown, p.92.
  4. ^ Lieberman, p.44.
  5. ^ Suppe, p.218.

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Charles Cawley writes in http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm:

ROBERT de Say "Picot" (-after 1086).

A charter dated to 1060 records the transactions of "Roberto de Sayo qui cognominabatur Ficot et Adaloye uxori…et…Roberto et Henrico filiis suis" [trans: Robert de Say who is known as Picot and his wife Adeloye and Robert and Henry his sons] with the monastery of Saint-Martin de Sees in Normandy, signed by "Rogeri comitis, Picot, Roberti filii eius, Henrici filii Picot, Adeloye uxoris Picot"[1050]. [trans: Count Roger, Picot, his son Robert, Henry son of Picot, Adeloye wife of Picot.]

"…Picotum vicecomitem…" [trans. Vicomte Picot] witnessed the charter under which William I King of England confirmed the rights of Ely abbey[1051]. "…Ivonem Taillebois, Petrum de Valoines, Picotem vicecomitem, Ticlum de Helum, Hugonem de Hosdeng" witnessed the charter dated to [1080] under which William I King of England confirmed the customs of Ely monastery[1052]. [trans. note: Other witnesses were Ivo Taillebois, Peter de Valoines, Ticlum de Helum and Hugo de Hosdeng]

Domesday records 27 manors in Shropshire held by "Picot", including Clun[1053].

m ADELAIS, daughter of ---. A charter dated to 1060 records the transactions of "Roberto de Sayo qui cognominabatur Ficot et Adaloye uxori…et…Roberto et Henrico filiis suis" with the monastery of Saint-Martin de Sees in Normandy, signed by "Rogeri comitis, Picot, Roberti filii eius, Henrici filii Picot, Adeloye uxoris Picot"[1054].

Robert & his wife had two children:

a) ROBERT de Say . A charter dated to 1060 records the transactions of "Roberto de Sayo qui cognominabatur Ficot et Adaloye uxori…et…Roberto et Henrico filiis suis" with the monastery of Saint-Martin de Sees in Normandy, signed by "Rogeri comitis, Picot, Roberti filii eius, Henrici filii Picot, Adeloye uxoris Picot"[1055].

b) HENRY de Say (-after [1129/30]). A charter dated to 1060 records the transactions of "Roberto de Sayo qui cognominabatur Ficot et Adaloye uxori…et…Roberto et Henrico filiis suis" with the monastery of Saint-Martin de Sees in Normandy, signed by "Rogeri comitis, Picot, Roberti filii eius, Henrici filii Picot, Adeloye uxoris Picot"[1056].

c) [ELIAS de Say (-1160 or before). Eyton suggests that Elias was the son of Henry de Say but he cites no primary source which suggests that this might be the case[1057]. According to Domesday Descendants, Henry was "brother and successor" [1140] of Henry de Say of Clun[1058]. Lord of Clun, Shropshire. "…Brianum de Jai et Heliam patrem eius…" witnessed the undated charter under which "Hugo de Mortuo mari" confirmed the donations to Saint-Victor-en-Caux by "patre meo Radulfo…ab avo meo Rogerio"[1059].] m ---. The name of Elias´s wife is not known. Elias & his wife had two children:


i) BRIAN de Say . "…Brianum de Jai et Heliam patrem eius…" witnessed the undated charter under which "Hugo de Mortuo mari" confirmed the donations to Saint-Victor-en-Caux by "patre meo Radulfo…ab avo meo Rogerio"[1060].

ii) ISABEL de Say (-[1199][1061]). “Willielmus de Boterell” confirmed the donation, for the soul of “Willielmi filii mei”, by “domina Isabella de Say uxor mea” of the church of St George, Clun to Wenlock Priory, by undated charter witnessed by “Brientio de Say…Hugone Peverell…”[1062]. m firstly ([1153/54]) as his second wife, WILLIAM FitzAlan, son of ALAN FitzFlaald & his [second] wife Aveline d'Hesdin (-1160). m secondly ([1160/66]) as his second wife, GEOFFREY de Vere, son of AUBREY de Vere & his wife Adelisa [Alice] de Clare (-1170). Lord of Clun and Oswestry, Shropshire. Sheriff of Shropshire 1167 to 1170[1063]. m thirdly ([1171]) as his first wife, WILLIAM Boterel [II] of Cornwall, son of WILLIAM Boterel [I] & his wife Alice Corbet (-[1211]).


Sources

[1050] Eyton (1860), Vol. XI, p. 225, quoting Gallia Christiana, Vol. XI, pp. 152-3.

[1051] Liber Eliensis, Vol. I, II, 117, p. 252.

[1052] Dugdale Monasticon I, Ely Monastery, Cambridgeshire, X, p. 477.

[1053] Eyton (1860), Vol. XI, p. 227.

[1054] Eyton (1860), Vol. XI, p. 225, quoting Gallia Christiana, Vol. XI, pp. 152-3.

[1055] Eyton (1860), Vol. XI, p. 225, quoting Gallia Christiana, Vol. XI, pp. 152-3.

[1056] Eyton (1860), Vol. XI, p. 225, quoting Gallia Christiana, Vol. XI, pp. 152-3.

[1057] Eyton (1860), Vol. XI, p. 228.

[1058] Domesday Descendants, p. 679, citing Rees (1975) Shrewsbury Cartulary, no. 350b.

[1059] Robillard de Beaurepaire, C. de (ed.) ´Recueil de chartes concernant l´abbaye de Saint-Victor-en-Caux´, Mélanges, documents publiés et annotés par MM Ch. de Beaurepaire, Paul le Cacheux, A. Héron et Hipplyte Sauvage, 5ème série (Rouen, 1898) ("Caux Saint-Victor"), II, p. 370.

[1060] Caux Saint-Victor, II, p. 370.

[1061] Domesday Descendants, p. 680.

[1062] Dugdale Monasticon V, Wenlock Priory, Shropshire, V, p. 76.

[1063] CP X Appendix J, p. 113.

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Robert was Lord of Clun in Shropshire. The name Say is from Sai, Orne, arr. Argentan (France). {-"English Baronies," I. J. Sanders, Oxford, 1960, pp. 1112-13: Robert was also lord of Stoke-Say, Salop, and had 29 manors; in 1083 he was among the leading men summoned by Roger de Montgomery to witness the foundation charter of his abbey at Shrewsbury.

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Robert was co-founder of Saint-Martin of Seez in 1060. His three sons all came to England at the Conquest (Picot de Say, Robert FitzPicot and William de Say). {-"Falaise Roll," (1938), p. 52}

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Biography

Say, Sai, of Shropshire.

Sai: Orne, arr. and cant. Argentan.

"Picot, who was a substantial under-tenant of Earl Roger of Montgomery at Clun and elsewhere in Shropshire, is shown by the devolution of his lands to have been Picot de Say. Robert, Abbot of St-Martin de Sees granted the privilege of burial to Robert and Henry their sons; and in return Picot (as he is henceforth called) and his wife gave to the abbey "edificium matris Picot cum virgulto quod habebat juxta ecclesiam sancte Marie de Vrou" and confirmed a third of the church of Sai which Osmelinus de Sayo gave at the same time, giving also meadow land in the meadows "de Juvigneio"; the charter is subscribed by Earl Roger, Picot and his wife and two sons. "Vrou" is clearly Urou, the next parish to Sai, and Juvigni the parish immediately south of Sai. An agreement was made on 17 May 1086 in the court of Robert de Belleme between Picot de Saio and Droco de Coimis as to the dower which Droco's brother William had given to Adeloia his wife, who had been remarried to Picot. This is further evidence of Picot's tenure under the house of Montgomery-Belleme, and suggests that the charter to St-Martin de Sees was considerably later than 1060, the date to which it has been assigned." [Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families]

Sources

Phillips, Weber, Kirk and Staggs Families of the Pacific Northwest, by Jim Weber, rootsweb.com


Robert de Say, also called Robert Fitz-Picot, was a Norman knight who arrived in Shropshire after the Norman invasion.[1]

Robert is most noted for the initial construction of Clun Castle, building it overlooking the lands he had seized from Edric the Wild after the invasion.[2] The family name de Say comes from the Norman village of Sai, in Orne. Robert was an important vassal of Roger of Montgomery, the 1st Earl of Shrewsbury and a major early Norman magnate.[3] Robert died in 1098.[4]

Robert's son Henry de Say continued possession of Clun Castle. Robert's daughter married the Welsh lord Cadwgan ap Bleddyn, who acquired permission to move to England, probably Clun, in 1109.[5]

Bibliography

   Brown, Reginald Allen. (1989) Castles From The Air. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-32932-3.
   Eyton, William. (1862) "The Castles of Shropshire and its Border." in Collectanea Archæologica: communications made to the British Archaeological Association Vol. 1. London: Longman.
   Liddiard, Robert. (ed) (2003) Anglo Norman Castles. Woodbridge: Boydell Press.
   Lieberman, Max. (2010) The Medieval March of Wales: The Creation and Perception of a Frontier, 1066-1283. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-76978-5.
   Pettifer, Adrian. (1995) English Castles: A Guide by Counties. Woodbridge: Boydell Press. ISBN 978-0-85115-782-5.
   Suppe, Frederick C. "Castle guard and the castlery of Clun," in Liddiard (ed) 2003.

References

1. Eyton 1862, p.45. 2. Pettifer, p.211; Brown, p.92. 3. Brown, p.92. 4. Suppe, p.218. 5. Lieberman, p.44.

Please see Darrell Wolcott: Henry, the Forgotten Son of Cadwgan ap Bleddyn; http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id117.html. (Steven Ferry, April, 22, 2017.)

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Robert fitz Picot de Say's Timeline

1040
1040
Orne, Normandie, France
1054
1054
Age 14
England
1058
1058
Age 18
Sai, Orne, Normandy, France or Clun, Shropshire, England
1065
1065
Age 25
Clun, Shropshire, England
1065
Age 25
Bishops Stortford, Herefordshire, England
1070
1070
Age 30
Clun, Shropshire, , England
1070
Age 30
Clun Castle, Shropshire, England
1074
1074
Age 34
Ludlow, Shropshire, , England
1098
1098
Age 58
Guilden Morden, Cambridgeshire, England