Jean Le le Carpentier - Source information?

I’ve run across this

two minutes’ research shows no documented, verifiable lineage for Vicomte Guillaume de Melun le Carpentier and no firm evidence he produced any descendants.

Anne Brannen If I could trouble you for a look at these supposed Anglo Normans?

This tree is sort of hilariously all over the place, isn't it?

We're in London! We're in Herefordshire! We're in France! We're in Belgium!

a travelling family, I take it.

I will help with this -- maybe as soon as tomorrow.

Thank you. I might drop a query to http://carpentercousins.com and find out what they consider their “tree top.”

In case anyone doesn’t know, this family organization and DNA project has engaged a professional genealogist, who updates every two years. The quality & format of his reports is comparable to Anderson’s Great Migration Project.

I separated ?? le Charpentier from Guillaume "le Charpentier" de Melun, Vicomte de Melun whose wife & children, if any, are unknown.

Separated Godwin Carpenter from the de Melun tree.

I suspect Sir William le Carpentier, de Melun, II is actually the same as his reported father based in dates, and ?? le Charpentier could be merged into Ursio I, vicomte de Melun

Opinions? Anyone go into FMG Medlands under de Melun?

wife of Siger le Carpentier was not the same person as Aleid van Holland, comtesse de Hainaut

i'm finding a cornucopia of different carpenter/le carpentier/de melun branches that are as orgamized as a blind grandmother's knitting. of course, i dont merge medieval trees as that's a no-no. but this crew is full of direct ancestors, so i hope this gets figured out.

sjp

Everyone’s research is welcome. I’m no medievalist but I can spot unlikely locations and dates with the best. And the master profiles are often well sourced, so reading those notes helps me with the empty profiles.

Oh, wow. Where to start?

I guess that I may need to introduce myself. I was contacted off this forum to provide some insight. My name is John R. Carpenter, I compiled the Carpenters Encyclopedia of Carpenters in 2001 a two CD set - aka CECD 2001, long with various updates. One update in 2009 (CE 2009 a two data DVD set) had major updates, corrections and pruning of the lines. I also run the Carpenter Cousins Project (started as the Carpenter CD Project) and the related Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project. I am also a member (#8001) of the Guild of One Name Studies for the surname Carpenter.

The 2001 was designed to show Carpenter researchers what was out there. The major New England Carpenter lines shown there in went past their immigrant ancestors into an English lineage back to their immigrant who came to London from the Du Nord area of France. The line then went back into the De Melun line before the First Crusade in 1098. For those who read the notes back then, one could see there was a lot of speculation and cautions. Different sections of the lineages were held together more by wishful thinking and speculation. Sadly most of those notes were removed when too many decided it was gospel truth and uploaded it to the internet ad nauseum.

Previous researchers, especially those in the mid 1970s were not as careful, nor did they have access to what we have today. With Y-DNA research (2002) and major efforts to confirm (check claimed proofs and add to) the New England lineages we found major will errors. Claimed sons were actually servants in one major will.

Many were very angry that we cut the New England (Rehoboth, MA & Providence, RI) Carpenter lineage off shortly in England. It was clear that the lines given were wrong, but that did not stop people from claiming we were wrong and blaming us for cutting the cherished notions of Carpenter lineage!

Even the sacrosanct claim the the two immigrant William Carpenter immigrants (1635 & 1638) were first cousins was proven wrong by Y-DNA research. Gene Zubrinsky spent several years documenting their immediate extended families and we published it on line for people to see. These twelve articles are called the Carpenter Sketches.

In addition to what we published, we created or improved some 300 Wikipedia articles on Carpenters. Sadly, other "Wiki Editors" have since warped some articles by removing Coats of Arms material, parentage and other things they felt were not appropriate for Wikipedia. One example is at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_the_Carpenter - See the nick name section. It took a lot of effort to get the primary editor to quit calling the subject a butcher of meat that used his lance and sword instead of his Ax (I.E. battle ax). Take a gander at the talk page at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:William_the_Carpenter (RIN 16312 in the CE)

We also tried to improve core Carpenter entries in various email forums, web sites and such by encouraging people to focus on what was hard proved via genetic and paper research. Sadly, it is a never ending battle as new, naive or semi-educated people in genealogy come on line and think everything on the internet is gospel truth.

Some believe that if they gather everything they will become an expert. One whose name I will not mention collected over 1.5 million names on Carpenters from the internet and wanted to publish it as a master book on Carpenters. He thought he could get rich doing so. He tired to sell the books for $250 each. I doubt he sold even one, even though he offered me a 90% discount.

I now getting side tracked. Hopefully, this missive will give some back ground history.

I am going to allow Erica Howton access to what I currently have on file via Drop Box. She can down load the material then review and use it to update the articles on Geni.

Side note. RIN = Record Information Number. My database since 2001 has remained stable in its RINs. For example, When you have some 1500+ William Carpenters those RINs come in handy. When you see an article that cites me and a RIN number it can be easily found in the database.

Best Wishes,

John R. Carpenter
http://carpentercousins.com
https://carpenter.one-name.net

John Carpenter — delighted! Thanks for appearing. Like magic.

I have a couple of questions:

The information we have for John Carpenter the Younger’s father is that he is Richard Carpenter. Of London. Though France gets mentioned.

How do we know that this is his father?

The birth and baptismal records for John the Younger are apparently in Herefordshire.

What is it that causes us to believe he is the John Carpenter who will later be in London? I’m not seeing it yet in the things I am finding.

The other question is about the large gap between the birth an$ baptismal dates fo4 John the Younger. One didn’t necessarily be baptized immediately in the Middle Ages, but a date of this length is highly unusual and requires some sort f explanation.

SO glad you are here!

John just posted a lot of interesting details here

https://www.geni.com/discussions/183682?msg=1229537

I can see what you mean, John, about the Wikipedia article getting garbled.

Simple answer: Coats of Arms.
To have such COAs at this time one had to be of nobility. As the English and their allies were slowly pushed out of France in the late 1300s many nobles retired (moved) to England. They received land for their service from the crown. Add in surviving documentation such as wills, grants and such. If John the Elder had a father had a father named Richard, then his brother John the younger who inherited via a will then had the same father.
Each noble family had a representative that served in government, mainly to keep watch on other noble families!
While the family estates were in Hereford, the government was in London that was also the center of (international) business activity. Interesting enough, history indicates that many nobles found sailing far easier than traveling overland. A caravan of wagons needed guards and much support. And making 10 to 15 miles a day was not uncommon then.
Say about 150 miles from Hereford Cathedral to London. Minimum 10 days travel and likely 15 days. A trip to down the River Wye to the sea then a sailing ship to London may take about the same time, but it would be much easier.
Finally if one did not have a certificate or proof of baptism acceptable from a sister church, the easiest thing is to be re-baptized or have the christening redone. This to enable your proper membership. This was not uncommon for those who were born in another country or distant place.
So when you you see a family with two or more children in the records having the same date of bap/chr date, this is often the case. If you know where they came from, sometimes you will get lucky and find their first bap/chr dates.
Historically, the goal was to bap/chr the child within a month of birth. Later other churches would wait until the child was about age 8.
They key is to remember the time and place where the ancestor was to better understand the 4Ws & such.

John R. Carpenter

Notes for Richard or Renaud Carpenter-86
1. Richard or Renaud Carpenter-86 was born about 1335/1337 in of, Grand Pont, Cambrai, Nord, France. He was christened about 1335/1337 in of, London, Middlesex, England. He was buried in St.Martin Church, Outwich, London, England.

Note:
Richard & Christina were buried at The CHURCH OF ST. MARTIN, Ooutwich Bishop
Gate St., London, England. Buried under a pew.
Per Bruce E. Carpenter: Per an Encyclopaedia of London the Church of St. Martin Outwich burned down and was rebuilt in 1727, then "In 1874 the church was demolished" (p. 95). Some records claim he was a Goldsmith (Chaundeler) by trade, however he was most likely a broker or middleman. See MISC: below.
He possessed wealth for his day.

DEATH: 1395 buried in St.Martin Church, Outwich, London, England.
If he died in 1395 then who is this Richard Carpenter in 1408?
Folio lxx.Exon'acio Rog'i Warde civis et scissoris London'.
31 Aug., 9 Henry IV. [A. D. 1408], Roger Warde, tailor, discharged by William Staundone, the Mayor, and Aldermen from serving on juries, &c., owing to increasing old age.
Exon'acio Ric'i Carpenter civis et talughchaundler.
11 Oct., 10 Henry IV. [A. D. 1408], Richard Carpenter, "talughchaundeler, " similarly discharged for like cause.
From: 'Folios lxi - lxx: Dec 1406 - ', Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: I: 1400-1422 (1909), pp. 55-67. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33679 Date accessed: 22 April 2009.
AND (from the MISC: section below - Close Rolls for Henry lV in 1412.
"Memorandum of a mainprise body for body, made in chancery in November this
year by John Bulloke `skynner',John Ledys `cordwaner', both of London, Richard Carpenter of
`Fleetsreet' ...
AND Custodia Isabelle filie Joh'is Pays quondam civis et Tonsor' London'.
27 Sept., 11 Henry IV. [A.D. 1410], a sum of money bequeathed by her uncle Master Thomas Pays, clerk, to Isabella, daughter of John Pays, late shearman, committed by Richard Merlawe, the Mayor, and John Proffyt, the Chamberlain, to Alice, mother of the said Isabella, in trust. Sureties, viz., John Norman, goldsmith, and Richard Carpenter, "chaundeler."
Afterwards, viz., on the 10th June, 4 Henry V. [A.D. 1416], came Thomas [sic], who had married the said Isabella, and acknowledged satisfaction.

From: 'Folios xci b - ci: March 1409-10', Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: I: 1400-1422 (1909), pp. 83-90. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33682 Date accessed: 22 April 2009.

BOOK: "A GENEALOGICAL HISTORY OF THE REHOBOTH BRANCH OF THE CARPENTER FAMILY." BY Amos Bugbee CARPENTER in 1898, aka "THE CARPENTER MEMORIAL." SEE also: "GENEALOGICAL & FAMILY HISTORY OF WESTERN NEW YORK." LEWIS 1912. PAGE 1252 & 1317. At least two sons per the above records.

AF has a third son "RICHARD" listed. However this may be in error since a
Robert Carpenter has a son named Richard in the same time period.

Additional information supplied by Raymond George Carpenter, American
Genealogist for the American Family. His sources referenced are: "English
Genealogist Harry F. Rogers, Bunise's various 19th century works; "Life of
Lord George Carpenter" printed 1736; Play fair's Family Antiquities; and the
Davis and Owen Perrage; Will of the Town Clerk of London."

BIRTH: We know Richard was "of London." But he was probably born in France.
This following data fits and may be correct.
Renaud LE CARPENTIER Birth: Abt. 1337 Grand Pont, Cambrai, Du, Nord, France.
Father: Jean LE CARPENTIER.
Mother: Jeanne TABARIE.
REF: Film Number: 170458 Page Number: 70 Reference Number: 1934.

SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, 1965, Oxford. The City of London School for the Poor was endowed by this Richard's
younger son, named John or John the younger. On page 2 of the above, it lists
that this "Richard was a chandler living in Billiter Lane in 1381.
It also mentions on page 3, that a son named Robert Carpenter, "of whom
nothing is known except that he had a son (named) Richard and two daughters
(named) Joan and Katherine." This is known by John the younger's will.
Other children may have been buried in the graveyard of the Church of St.
Martin.
The rolls of Parliment of the fifth Richard II, King of England, contains
pardons where several Carpenters are noted being excepted from benefits.
One is a Richard Carpenter of Billiter Lane in London.

MISC: This quote appears in the Close Rolls for Henry lV in 1412.
"Memorandum of a mainprise body for body, made in chancery in November this
year by John Bulloke `skynner',
John Ledys `cordwaner', both of London, Richard Carpenter of `Fleetsreet',
John Apulton `taillour', John Stone Barbour', John Fynche `Chaundeler', John
Parker `armorer' and John Wolfhart `habirdasher' to have Nicholas Passyn
`goldsmith' there from day to day until the court is dismissed."
This quotation involves money that a goldsmith owed to the long
list of individuals. Goldsmiths were the bankers of their days. People with
cash assets turned their money over to the goldsmiths before it was turned
in deeded assets like land etc. All the above people belonged to trade
guilds with the exception of Richard Carpenter who was of a profession above
theirs and not designated, as was the custom in official documents. Richard
had money to turn over to a goldsmith, yet he was not a tradesman. The other
people in the document were probably not representing themselves, but rather
they were representing their guild or trade groups. In other words
John Parker `armorer' had given armorer trade association money to Mr.
Passyn the goldsmith for his safe keeping. Likewise Richard Carpenter could
very well have been representing a group of people, or corporate interest,
in this legal proceeding.
Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter 7-11-99.
Dear Bruce,
When I compile data, I sometimes don't check definitions. You are right that
chaundler does not mean goldsmith. This was an error on my part. Having
discusions and questions posed helps put the puzzle together.
Per Webster's New Universal UNABRIDGED Dictionary (based on the Random House
Dictionary of the English language 1996 by Barnes & Noble);
There are three definitions for the word Chandler (page 344) or Chaundelier ...
The most common TODAY; "1) a person who makes or sells candles and sometimes
other items of tallow or wax, as soap." (I.E. related to candles and their
holders) A common definition used in the early 1700's and into the early 1800s;
"2) a dealer or trader in supplies, provisions, etc. of a specialized type: a
ship chandler."
The more obscure definition; "3) a retailer of provisions, groceries, etc."
Word Root history "[1275-1325; ME chandeler candlestick, maker or seller of candles < AF, OF
chandelier, lit., some one or something connected with candles, equiv. to
chandelle CANDLE + -ier -IER2]"
Since earlier works used the term in the definition of their times and local
and we should look at the sources of data. Examples: "Bunise's various 19th
century works; "Life of Lord George Carpenter" printed 1736; Play fair's Family
Antiquities."
Logically, since the sources with in the 1700's into the 1800's we should use
the definition used AT THAT TIME AND LOCAL. The definition of number two above
would fit.
"2) a dealer or trader in supplies, provisions, etc. of a specialized type: a
ship chandler."
Since Richard Carpenter was close to power because of wealth and had access (in
the mid to late 1300s) in someway (due to nobility for example) to the King's
Court, it is reasonable to assume that he was a trader (or broker in today's
terms) in supplies or provisions.

Fleet Street today in central London, England is the location of many newspaper
offices. In the 1700's it was an area of Brokerages, as it had been for
several hundred years. A Broker (from 1350-1400 ME broco(u)r)) in the 1700's
was a middleman dealing with high end merchandise such as gold. (I can see how
the relationship was formed between Chaundler and gold)
Fleet Street in 1375-1425 derises its name from the ME Flete Strete, after a
nearby stream.
Thus in your last E-message where you quoted "the Close Rolls for Henry lV in
1412.
"Memorandum of a mainprise body for body, made in chancery in November this
year by John Bulloke `skynner', John Ledys `cordwaner', both of London, Richard Carpenter of `Fleetsreet' ..."
Apparently by 1412 "of Fleetstreet" meant he represented someone or some group
(like himself or some brokers). Since Fleet Street was known as a brokerage
area from the late 1300's to the early 1900's, this makes sense.
What is even more amazing is that the Richard Carpenter (who married Christina)
in question died in 1395 and was buried in St.Martin
Church,Outwich,London,England.
None of Richard Carpenters known children is named Richard. His oldest son,
John the elder inheritted his father's wealth (1395) and later (in 1441) his
younger brother's wealth (he was John the younger - The Noted Town Clerk of
London).

Bruce also supplied the following data that MAY apply to Richard's family:
The following is Calendar of Close Rolls entry for May 16, 1393:
"John Carpenter of Lavenham `draper' the elder, John Carpenter of Lavenham
`draper' the younger and Thomas Corby of Lavenham `fuller' to Richard Grace
citizen of London and Thomas his son. Recognisance for 20 L. to be levied
etc. in Suffolk. Defeasance thereof, upon condition that they pay 10
marks on each of the days named."
In a December 7, 139l entry:
"Memorandum of a mainprise under a pain of 100 L., made in chancery 6
December this year by Thomas atte Stone of Haddeley, Richard Clerke of
Kersey, John Dyster, Robert Berte, both of Kersey, Robert atte Mede of Ylle,
John Huberd, William Page, both of Ylle, Robert Barewe of Bildeston and
Robert Carpenter of Lavenham, for themselves and each for other under the
same pain, that they shall do or procure no hurt or harm to Richard Walton
of Bishops Lenne, and shall make no unlawful assemblies which tend to
disturbance of the people or breach of the peace."
Lavenham is about half way between Norwich and London.
On October 26, 1389 an entry appears with a John Carpenter as a witness.
"John son of Michael de Bures to Thomas de Swynbourne knight, William
Skrene, John Conors, Rodger Cavendyssh, William rule and Robert Risby, and
to the heirs and assigns of Robert Risby. Charter with warranty of all his
lands, rents and services in Lavenham, Cokefeld, Preston and Thorpmurieux,
with wards, marriages etc. thereto belonging. Witnesses: John Rocwode,
Lawrence Porterose, Thomas atte Tye, Alan Wellynge, Peter Everard, Robert
Cooke, John Carpenter. Dated Lavenham, Tuesday after St. Hilary 13 Richard
ll."

NAME: Children names of John the elder and John the younger may be the naming
of children Jean and Jehan. Both Jean and Jehan are forms of John in English.
Current American names would be Jon and John.

E-MAIL: Continued from Bruce on 18 Mar 2000:
While I researched late 1300s Carpenter history, my library had a key volume
still at the bookbindery. When the book was returned to the stacks it proved
to contain a crucial piece of Carpenter family history concerning Richard
Carpenter the father of John Carpenter the Town Clerk. Previously I had
found documents connecting Richard to Lancaster politics in the 1390s. He
was found with cloth merchants in the cloth-producing town of Chipping
Camden in Gloucestershire. Chipping Camden was a cloth-producing town of
major importance at that time. His eldest sons were identified as mercers in
another well-known cloth-producing town of Lavenham. The whole family was
obviously in political trouble.
Previous to these events I had found documents that connected Richard to
land cases in Hertfordshire, all of which he seemed to have a financial
interest. The document I have just found in the unread volume of Fine Rolls
sheds much light on all the above events and does much to clarify the life
of Richard Carpenter. (From Fine Rolls, 2 Richard II, June 30, 1378.)
"Commitment to John de Newenton, `chivaler,' -by mainprise of Nicholas Adam,
Walter atte Melle, John Raven and Master Richard Carpenter of the county of
Hertford, Nicholas Westerdale of the county of Bedford, and Richard Brok of
London,-of the keeping of the manor of Hycche, co. Hertford, which is in the
king's hand by the forfeiture of Alice Perers, to hold the same from Easter
last for ten years, rendering 100 marks yearly at the Exchequer by equal
portions at Michaelmas and Easter, maintaining the houses and buildings
pertaining to the manor, and supporting all charges incimbent thereon. By
bill of the treasurer."
This document is a fabulous one. It marks the beginning of the Carpenter
connection to the House of Lancaster that continued to John the Town Clerk
and Bishop John Carpenter. In 1378 John of Gaunt the Duke of Lancaster
controlled England and its youthful king. In 1378 when important land
escheated into the royal hands it really went into the hands of the Duke of
Lancaster. Here we can see political favors being repaid by lucrative rights
to an entire estate. Richard Carpenter and friends had to pay a fee to the
crown and subsequently kept the remaining profits for themselves. Nearly all
the individuals named with Richard Carpenter can be identified as connected
to the royal household.
We must assume such a connection for Richard Carpenter himself. Richard's
title of `master' is most intriguing. `Master'
suggests Richard was eminent in a specific field or trade. As with the many
other Carpenters we have seen, who provided financial support to the ruling
circle, Richard Carpenter must be added to the list. Lastly, in 1378 Richard
's main abode was located somewhere in Hertfordshire, which was directly
adjacent to London and a favorite place for the county homes of the rich and
powerful connected to London. The Nicholas Adams for example is listed as a
resident of Hertfordshire, but is also listed as the king's serjeant-at-arms
as well as surveyor of a tax in Cambridgeshire. Hertfordshire was where Adam
had most of his land. In 1378 Richard Carpenter must have been still a young
man. He is seen here as fully established in life, and when considering his
other land holdings, a man of great wealth. Surely Richard Carpenter was the
inheritor of significant wealth and family influence.
Bruce Carpenter

MISC:
From: "Adam McLean" <alchemy@dial.pipex.com>
To: <jrcrin001@cox.net>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 7:26 AM
Subject: 15th Century - Richard Carpenter
> Dear John R. Carpenter ,
> I found your excellent web site when researching a 15th century
> alchemist, Richard Carpenter, whose verses are found in the
> Bodleian Library in Oxford, and in the British Library.
> Richard Carpenter is supposed by Elias Ashmole to have been
> the brother or a close relative of John Carpenter the
> Bishop of Worcester between 1443 and 1476.
> Do you have any information on this Richard Carpenter ?>
> I would be most grateful for any leads.>
> Best wishes,
> Adam McLean
> ----------------------
> E Mail : alchemy@dial.pipex.com
> Web site: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/home.html
> Alchemy Web bookstore: http://www.alchemy.dial.pipex.com
> Paintings: http://www.alchemywebsite.com/paintings
> Study Course: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/study_courses.html
http://sitelevel.whatuseek.com/query.go?crid=6812065c78bba89e&amp;q...=
Search
Results from This Site: 1 - 9 of 9 total results for Richard Carpenter
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http://www.levity.com/alchemy/tcbrcarp.html - 0k -
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/tcbrcarp.html
English alchemy books A - B
... Worke of John Dastin. p269-274 Pearce the Black Monke upon the Elixir. p275-277 The Worke of Rich: Carpenter. p278-290 The Hunting of the Greene Lyon. p291-303 The Breviary of naturall Philosophy. Compiled ...
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English alchemical verse
... Philosopher's Stone Testament of John Dee John Gwynn A short work of George Ripley The Worke of Richard Carpenter John Gower concerning the Philosophers' Stone Thomas Charnock - The Breviary of Alchemy ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/theatrum.html - 7k - 2002-04-30
[fr-index.html]
... the Alchemists? Cagliostro's Transmutation in Warsaw Campanella's City of the Sun The Worke of Richard Carpenter Cauda Pavonis Alchemical Aenigmas by Thomas Charnock Charnock's Breviary of Alchemy Chart ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/fr-index.html - 76k - 2002-04-30
English alchemy books C - G
... / M - Q / R - Z home page Articles Resources bibliography Texts Images Practical Discussions Texts
Carpenter, Agricola. Pseuchographia Anthropomagica: Or, A Magicall Description of the Soul: Wherein is ...
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Modern Rosicrucian groups
... -Lytton, Dr. W.W. Westcott, Eliphas Levi, Theodor Reuss, Frederick Hockley [1809-1885], William Carpenter [1797-1874], and many many more. The SRIA was originally nothing but a study group, and did not ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/rosi_grp.html - 56k - 2002-04-30
Database of alchemical manuscripts - Bodleian - Ashmole
... inventione lapidis. 17. Take erthe of erthe erthis broder and in grene hewe clerely distilled. 18.
Richard Carpenter's work. 19. Pearce the Black Monk upon the elixir. 20. 'Here folowithe thexposicion ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/almss5.html - 98k - 2002-04-30
List of authors of alchemical books
... [1548-1626]. (1 book - 1 work) Johann Samuel CARL [1676-1757]. (2 books - 2 works) Agricola CARPENTER. (1 book - 1 work) Bartholomæus CARRICHTER [1507-1573]. (11 books - 4 works) John CASE [fl. 1680-1700 ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/authors.html - 55k - 2002-04-30
Database of alchemical manuscripts - Cambridge
... receipts, with insertions by Charnock.] 9. f66v English poem headed Notabili versus qd Ric Carpenter.
Of spayne take the clere lyzt The rede gomme that ys so bryzt. [Theatrum Chemicum p 275] II. 16th ...
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/almss10.html - 56k - 2002-04-30

Richard married (MRIN:89) Christina-87 in ,,, England. Christina was born about 1336 in of, London, Middlesex, England. She was buried in St.Martin Church, Outwich, London, England.

BIRTH: Abt 1335/1337.
DEATH: aft 1384.

Richard and Christina had the following children:

2 M i. John The Elder Carpenter-88 was born about 1362 in of, London, Middlesex, England. He was christened on 20 Sep 1371 in Hereford, Cathadral, Hereford, England.

JOHN SENIOR was the eldest brother of JOHN (the younger) who was the noted Town Clerk of London. AF has birth dates reversed 1364 instead of 1372. BIRTH: Abt 1360/1364.

John, the Elder of London, owned over 300 houses in London and had a fish pond on his roof. Per Raymond Carpenter, the genealogist, who references the "fish pond" in various wills. John, the elder inherited the houses from his younger brother. He took over the family business from his father as the eldest child in 1395.

NOTE: The John and Robert mentioned below may have been brothers.
It may refer to this John and his brother Robert.
E-MAIL: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com>
The political tensions of the late 1300s provide us with glimpse of the
London Carpenters and enough evidence to begin to define them as a family
group at this interesting but troubled juncture of English history. The
story begins with the opposition to King Richard II by three powerful
aristocrats, Richard Fitzalan earl of Arundel, Thomas Beauchamp earl of
Warwick and Thomas of Woodstock duke of Gloucester. Open conflict begins in the late 1380s. Members of the King's faction are impeached by Parliament by the urging of the above three.
The King retaliates against the supporters of the three. In the midst of this we find Richard Carpenter and his sons John and Robert harassed and arrested. The implication of this is that the Carpenters must have held land from the three, and their economic activities must have been intertwined.
Ten years later in the late 1390s King Richard II had his revenge on the three aristocrats. Arundel was executed, Gloucester murdered and Beauchamp banished. John of Gaunt, the man behind the scene in all of this, remains neutral until his son Henry Bolinbroke finally deposes King Richard II and he himself becomes King Henry IV. This sets the stage for the long War of Roses, the conflict between the Lancaster and Yorkist claims to the throne, with the Carpenters naturally on the Lancaster side. When the three above aristocrats had their estates confiscated, the litigation for one of them happily lists the tenants.
John and Robert Carpenter appear as holding a good proportion of the land. The document is extremely Long and I will give portions of it. It is from the Calendar of Inquisitions, document 298.
"Thomas duke of Gloucester had on the day of his forfeiture the manor of
Tarent Launston__..There are 2 carucates of land of 200 acres each__.pasture on `le Doune' for 400 sheep worth 6s. 8d. yearly in excess of their winter keep, the shepherd's wages and livery and grease for the sheep__John Rauwe, John Hayne, John Carpenter, Walter Russell, Robert Carpenter, John Chubbe, Vincent Pynselond, Walter Serle, Thomas and John Russell, Rodger Trubbe, John Rodger and John Roule, whole virgaters, each holding a messuage and 24 acres of land, paying 4s. yearly and doing works worth 2s. yearly."
The manor appears to have been in Dorcet. We can assume that the Carpenters didn't live on the manor. This land was probably one of many of their holdings. In the document mention is made of the kind of people who actually managed the land for their absent landlords. The document describes various uses the land was put to. Sheep were a detailed and special mention, but not the only mentioned use. Unfortunately which tenant had the sheep is not specified, although I suspect the Carpenters.
Bruce E. Carpenter

*************************************

From: John R Carpenter 2
To: Tony Carpenter
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: John Carpenter of Battlesden;
Tony,

If we are talking 1405 and Thomas atte Wode had already married John Carpenter's daughter, we must assume that she was born at a minimum 15 to 20 years prior to 1405. This would be about 1385 to 1390.

Add a minimum of about 20 years prior to 1385 to 1390 and you get a minimum birth year of about 1365 to 1370 for John Carpenter who died by 1405.

We know that John Carpenter-89 "the Younger" (The noted town clerk of London) had no children and died after 1405.

His brother, John Carpenter-88 the Elder was born about 1362 but I have a baptism date of 20 Sep 1371. No death date was given, however, his youngest children were baptized in December of 1404.

He has one daughter listed who I found no baptism or birth date for. I estimated her birth in the mid range of the known children which was about 1402. If she was from a first marriage, she would have been older.

There is a hamlet of Battlesden in Bedfordshire, England. It borders Cambridgeshire, Northamptonshire, Buckinghamshire (with the Borough of Milton Keynes) and Hertfordshire.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedfordshire

However I have no Carpenters located in Bedford or Kent prior to 1550s in my records.

There is one more Carpenter family that is possible.

John Carpenter-68742 was born about 1355 in Dilwyne, Herefordshire, England. His father was named John Carpenter.
He had the following children:
2 M i. William Carpenter-68743 was born about 1376 in Dilwyne, Herefordshire, England.
3 M ii. John Carpenter-68744 was christened on 18 Dec 1378 in
Dilwyne, Hereford, England.

There is a history of Atwoods (atte wode) on file for that time period but born probably in Surrey.

http://www.sanderstead-parish.org.uk/html/atwood_genealogy.html
Generation 7
Name: Peter Atte Wode
Born: About 1360 (probably in Sanderstead, Surrey) Christened: Unknown Married: Pentronilla (born about 1364 in Sanderstead, Surrey) Died: After 1384 Buried: Unknown Parents: Peter Atte Wode & Laweance.
Children: John Atte Wode
Peter Atte Wode gained possession of Guildford Manor far east of Surrey. He was “Knight of the Shire” (Chief of the District”) In 1384, he became a member of Parliament for Guildford.

We do not have enough data to confirm which John Carpenter above or another is John Carpenter of Battlesden.

Do you have any other thoughts or data?

John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA

----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Carpenter
To: John R Carpenter 2
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 4:55 AM

John the Elder or John the Younger?

Cant make it fit.
Tony C
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Context
SC 8 Special Collections: Ancient Petitions

Subseries within SC 8 PETITIONS TO THE KING; TO THE KING AND COUNCIL; TO THE COUNCIL; TO THE PARLIAMENT; AND THE LIKE.

SC 8/230 11451-11500. Individual petitions are described and dated at Item level.
Record Summary
Scope and content
Petitioners: Thomas atte Wode, valet of the Stable of the Queen.
Addressees: King.
Places mentioned: Battlesden, [Bedfordshire]; Kent.
Other people mentioned: John Carpenter of Battlesden; Nicholas Hart, knight; William Jolyf (Joliffe).
Nature of request: Wode requests that he be granted certain goods and chattels of John Carpenter to the amount of £20 as the goods and chattels amount to 80 marks and more. Wode has married Carpenter's daughter, and Carpenter has been outlawed at the suit of Hart for a certain sum of money in which Carpenter was pledge to Joliffe whereby his moveable goods have been seized into the hand of the escheator of Kent.
Wode has been granted £50 from the goods but forfeits are assigned to the expenses of the Household and the council will not give £20.
Endorsement: [There is an apparent draft of the petition on the dorse, though it is parts badly fades and illegible].
Covering dates [1405]
Availability
Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years
Note
The petition dates to 1405 as the £20 was granted to the petitioner on 5 February 1405 (CPR 1401-5, p.453).
Held by
The National Archives, Kew

John married (MRIN:90) Carpenter-4674 before 1399 in of, London, Middlesex, England. Carpenter was born in 1376 in of, London, Middlesex, England.

3 M ii. Robert Carpenter-14719 was born about 1368 in of, London, Middlesex, England.

Additional information supplied by Raymond George Carpenter, American
Genealogist for the American Family. His sources referenced are:
"English Genealogist Harry F. Rogers, Bunise's various 19th century works;
"Life of Lord George Carpenter" printed 1736; Play fair's Family Antiquities;
and the Davis and Owen Perrage; Will of the Town Clerk of London."
He indicates only 3 known children for Robert: Richard, Joan and Katherine.

SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, 1965, Oxford. The City of London School for the Poor was endowed by this Robert'sbrother, named John or John the younger.
It mentions on page 3, that a son named Robert Carpenter, "of whom nothing
is known except that he had a son (named) Richard and two daughters (named) Joan and Katherine." This is known by John the younger's will.
In 1422 a Robert Carpenter was deputed by the Brewers' Company to go with the Mayor to Gravesend and attend to the removal of weirs in the Thames.

E-MAIL: Per Bruce E. Carpenter:
The identity of Robert Carpenter, the brother of Town Clerk John, might well
be revealed in the following legal documents. The nature of the cases is
not clear. However, we can safely assume they are property related, families
with means trying to increase their holdings and influence. Interesting is
the designation of `clerk' for Robert Carpenter. Those of us who have read
Chaucer will remember the Clerk's Tale. Clerks in the Middle Ages were very
well known people indeed. The term clerk would be better rendered as `lawyer
', a clerk being half accountant, half lawyer in a society where illiteracy
was common. Powerful interests were in real need of educated individuals who would take care of business. Clerks were educated at universities like
Oxford and other institutions. We can assume that anyone who was a clerk
came from a family of means, a family that could support a son through his
course of education, for a career of clerkship for some powerful economic
organization, or family like an aristocratic one. The place in the
dispositions is Kyngeston upon Thames (modern spelling is Kingston on
Thames). In the same town is a Thomas Carpenter, relation unspecified.
Thomas has no specified trade connection, which is very interesting. The
proximity to the Thames is also suggestive that Robert and Thomas were
somehow connected to ships and trade. The town is also connected to the
crown.
"To the sherrif of Surrey. Like writ, mutatis mutandis, by mainprise of
Thomas Grenewort, Robert Carpenter clerk, both of Kyngeston upon Thames,
John Stokes of Someset, and William Rason of Kyngeston upon Thames, in favor of Robert Rugge `wever' and Agnes his wife." (Close Rolls, 1407, June 2nd) To the sherrif of Surrey.Like writ. Mutantis mutandis, by mainprise of John Smart, Thomas Richard `cordwaner', Thomas Glover and Thomas Avery `cordwaner ' of Middlesex in favor of Thomas Carpenter of Kyngeston upon Thames, Joan his wife, Nicholas Fisshere of Kyngeston on Thames and Agnes his wife at suit of John Prynce `shoutman' and alice his wife." (August 8th).

NOTE: The John and Robert mentioned below may have been brothers.
It may refer to this Robert and his brother John.
E-MAIL: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com>
The political tensions of the late 1300s provide us with glimpse of the
London Carpenters and enough evidence to begin to define them as a family
group at this interesting but troubled juncture of English history. The
story begins with the opposition to King Richard II by three powerful
aristocrats, Richard Fitzalan earl of Arundel, Thomas Beauchamp earl of
Warwick and Thomas of Woodstock duke of Gloucester. Open conflict begins in the late 1380s. Members of the King's faction are impeached by Parliament by the urging of the above three. The King retaliates against the supporters of
the three. In the midst of this we find Richard Carpenter and his sons John
and Robert harassed and arrested. The implication of this is that the
Carpenters must have held land from the three, and their economic activities
must have been intertwined. Ten years later in the late 1390s King Richard
II had his revenge on the three aristocrats. Arundel was executed,
Gloucester murdered and Beauchamp banished. John of Gaunt, the man behind the scene in all of this, remains neutral until his son Henry Bolinbroke
finally deposes King Richard II and he himself becomes King Henry IV. This
sets the stage for the long War of Roses, the conflict between the Lancaster
and Yorkist claims to the throne, with the Carpenters naturally on the
Lancaster side. When the three above aristocrats had their estates
confiscated, the litigation for one of them happily lists the tenants. John
and Robert Carpenter appear as holding a good proportion of the land. The
document is extremely Long and I will give portions of it.
It is from the Calendar of Inquisitions, document 298.
"Thomas duke of Gloucester had on the day of his forfeiture the manor of
Tarent Launston__..There are 2 carucates of land of 200 acres each__.pasture on `le Doune' for 400 sheep worth 6s. 8d. yearly in excess of their winter keep, the shepherd's wages and livery and grease for the sheep__John Rauwe, John Hayne, John Carpenter, Walter Russell, Robert Carpenter, John Chubbe, Vincent Pynselond, Walter Serle, Thomas and John Russell, Rodger Trubbe, John Rodger and John Roule, whole virgaters, each holding a messuage and 24 acres of land, paying 4s. yearly and doing works worth 2s. yearly."
The manor appears to have been in Dorcet. We can assume that the Carpenters didn't live on the manor. This land was probably one of many of their holdings. In the document mention is made of the kind of people who actually managed the land for their absent landlords. The document describes various uses the land was put to. Sheep were a detailed and special mention, but not the only mentioned use. Unfortunately which tenant had the sheep is not specified, although I suspect the Carpenters.
Bruce E. Carpenter

E-MAIL: Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000.
From: Bruce Carpenter (Back in Japan) <carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
John:
After returning to my Japan office I looked
through the Carpenter material I had previously collected.
Long ago I had printed the Carpenter family history from
The Demott Family pages that were available. In those pages he
has Town Clerk John's brother Robert as having sons Henry and Richard.
These two names tally with material I found on Carpenters in
the Bristol Bay area. Henry was a well connected Bristol merchant and
Richard served the the king's brother Thomas of Lancaster.
Other documents I found connect Robert to
Gloustershire. In the book City of London School Robert is
mentioned as checking the fish weirs on the Thames. This
Robert seems more likely the son of Thomas Carpenter
of Kingston-on-Thames (son of Roger). This Robert was also a
Cinque Port official. This groupof Carpenters has never garined the
attention of previous researchers. Roger seems the most likely
father of Richard the father of John the Town Clerk.
Thus it seems to me that it was Robert the Town Clerk's brother
that extended the family into the Bristol Bay area. The Bishop Carpenter
must have been more closely connected to the original London group.
Robert's son or grandson? In 1433 he ends his position as king's clerk, a
younger cleric's position. Born about 1410? Brother of Richard and Henry.
Bishop John was also the real conduit of money to the Lancasters.
Has to be merchant money. Who was Robert and who was Bishop John?
BC

MORE: Another possible child named Laurence?
Folio ccxxi b.
Masters of Misteries sworn.
Tapicers : William Bullok, Thomas Besowthe, John Piryell, and John Flesshe sworn 4 Oct., 6 Henry V. [A.D. 1418], to well and faithfully govern the said mistery and present any defects they may find to the Mayor and Aldermen or to the Chamberlain of the City for the time being. ...
"Fullurs" :John Venne, Laurence Carpenter similarly sworn 9 Dec.
From: 'Folios ccxxi - ccxxxi: Nov 1418 - ', Calendar of letter-books of the city of
London: I: 1400-1422 (1909), pp. 206-219. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33694 Date accessed: 22 April 2009.

MORE: Folio ccxliii.
The above ordinance was passed by the Mayor and Aldermen, and at the instance of all persons using the mistery of Brewers within the City and suburbs, whose names were submitted to the Court on a roll of paper by the Masters, Wardens, and other good folk of the Mistery.
The Names of Brewers within the Liberties of the City of London.
Folio ccxliii b.Folio ccxliv.
... Robert Carpenter,... Piers Carpenter ...
From: 'Folios ccxli - ccl: Dec 1419 - ', Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: I: 1400-1422 (1909), pp. 231-243. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33696 Date accessed: 22 April 2009.

MORE: Another possible descendant or relative - Hugh. (1439)
Inasmuch as Johanna, wife of Hugh Carpenter, was indicted before Stephen Broun, the Mayor, and Aldermen of divers acts provoking to public immorality, and was thereof convicted, it is adjudged by the Mayor and Aldermen that she be put on the pillory two days for an hour, and that proclamation be made of the reason thereof. [No date].
Folio ccxc.
Inasmuch as Hugh Carpenter was similarly indicted and convicted, it is adjudged that he be put on the pillory for an hour, proclamation ut supra. [No date].

From: 'Folios cclxxxvi - ccxci: Convictions for immorality, 1400-1439', Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: I: 1400-1422 (1909), pp. 273-287. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33701 Date accessed: 22 April 2009.

Robert married (MRIN:1973) Unknown .

4 M iii. John The Younger Carpenter-89 was born about 1370/1372 in of, London, Middlesex, England. He was christened on 18 Dec 1378 in Hereford Cathedral, Hereford, Hereford, England. He died after 8 Mar 1441 in Parish of, St. Peter, Cornhill, England. He was buried before 12 May 1442 in Abby of St.Peter, London, Middlesex, England.

The noted Town Clerk of London. He founded The City of London School.
SEE 1068046, ITEM 2, in the British Film Area. A considerable amount of information is available on JOHN the Younger or junior (in the social sense). He married, but died childless. This John Carpenter is frequently distinguished in documents as 'John Carpenter, junior,' and also as Jenkin or Jenken, a diminutive of the name of John.
He was a MP (Member of Parliment) from London in 1425.

GRANT:
Grant by John Carpenter, the younger, citizen of London, to Master William Licheld,...
Reference: C 146/1258
Description: Grant by John Carpenter, the younger, citizen of London, to Master William Licheld, David Fyvian, clerk, William Chedworth and Robert Langford, citizens of London, of the tenement he lately built in the parish of St. Margaret's Briggestrete, adjoining a tenement of the prior of Christ Church, Canterbury, which the grantor held jointly with William Crowmere, Henry Barton, William Test, John Marchaunt, and Richard Osbarn, deceased, by the grant of Nicholas Stallyngburgh, clerk, and John Exton, executors of the will f William Neel, late citizen and vintner of London; and of another tenement in Thamisestrete, in the parish of St. Martin Orgar. (Middx.) Dated: London, 12 February, 19 Henry VI
Note: Seal
Date: [1440-1441]
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
Context of this record
Browse by Reference </browse/r/r/C5885717>
All departments </browse>
C - Records created, acquired, and inherited by Chancery, and also of the Wardrobe, Royal Household, Exchequer and various commissions </browse/r/h/C43>
Records of the Chancery as a legal registry and repository </browse/r/h/C594>
C 146 - Chancery: Ancient Deeds, Series C </browse/r/h/C3704>
C 146/1258 - Grant by John Carpenter, the younger, citizen of London, to Master William Licheld,... </browse/r/h/C5885717>
SEE: < http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5885717 >
NOTE: This is dated 12 February, 19 Henry VI which is in 1440 of the calendar then used. But it is in 1441 in the calendar of today. This is why we often use a split year before say 1751 for the months of January, February and March. Specifically some thing like [1440-1441] or 1440/1441.

SEE: "Memoir of the Life and Times of John Carpenter, Town Clerk of London in the reigns of Henry Fifth and Sixth." By Thomas Brewer in 1856, London.
Part of this Memoir is in the Carpenter Memorial (1898) starting on page 3. Brewer found no record of this John's life until his election as Town Clerk or Common Clerk of the City of London on April 20, 1417, two years after the Battle of Agincourt. The exemption mentioned on page 14 suggests that John Carpenter had been in the City's service 'from the time of his youth,' and he was certainly clerk to John Marchaunt, his predecessor as Town Clerk.

WILL: A copy of his will is in the Carpenter Memorial. Pages 12-17.
Will dated 8 March 1441 and proved 12 May 1442. The City of London School claims his death as 12 May 1442, it was when the will was proved - after his death.
NOTE: John Carpenter, Junior the Town Clerk of London was Executor of Dick Whittington's Will, He was a Member of Parliament. John Carpenter was a MP also.

SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, 1965, Oxford. This John Carpenter was one of 3 John Carpenters who were prominent in this time period. One was his elder brother named John Carpenter, sometimes known as John the Elder, this was a not uncommon medieval practice. The other John
Carpenter was Warden of St. Anthony's Hospital, Rector of St. Mary's Magdalen, and later Bishop of Worcester. SEE NOTE Below.
Per the above record, John Carpenter the younger's will was made in his 70th year.
This indicates his birth about 1371/1372. He would have been Town Clerk at about age 45, which seems reasonable.

MISC: Author of first book of English Common Law "Liber Albus".
Munimenta Gildhallae Londoniensis; Liber albus, Liber custumarum, et Liber Horn
See:
Riley, Henry T., and John Carpenter, eds. Munimenta Gildhallae Londoniensis; Liber Albus, Liber Custumarum, Et Liber Horn. 3 Vols. in 4. Rerum Britannicarum Medii Aevi Scriptores (Rolls Series), 12. London: Longman, Brown, Green, Longmans, and Roberts, 1859-1862. OCLC: 26230401
Abstract: Contains documents illustrating the legal, social and constitutional history of London during the 13th and 14th centuries. Contents:
Vol. 1, Liber albus, compiled AD 1419
Vol. 2, Liber custumarum, with extracts from the Cottonian ms. Claudius. D. II.
Vol. 3, Translation of the Anglo-Norman passages in Liber albus, glossaries,
appendices, and index.
http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=issn%3A2623-0401+OR+no%3A26230401&...
Related Subjects: Customary law -- England -- London. | Anglo-Norman dialect -- Glossaries, vocabularies, etc. | English language -- Middle English, 1100-1500 -- Glossaries, vocabularies, etc.
Cite:
City of London (England), Henry T. Riley, and John Carpenter. Munimenta Gildhallæ Londoniensis: Liber albus, Liber custumarum, et Liber Horn. London: Longman, Brown, Green, Longmans, and Roberts, 1859.

He was a leader in education in early England and founded the City of London School for Poor Children. He was also a member of Parliament from London. He owned over 300 buildings and had a fish pond or reservoir on top of his own house. He willed these to his borther.
John the younger obtained letter of patent from the Crown (Henry VI) dated 3 Dec. 18 (1418?) exempting him for the whole of his life from all military and civil duties whatsoever, among which as included election as member of
Parliment and receiving the Honour of Knighthood. SEE: Carpenter Chronicles, Vol. 26, (Sept. 1996) note by John Patching.
Please note that John the younger had to earn his Knighthood and Arms for Service. His brother received his Knighthood and Arms from his father.

AF has birth dates reversed 1372 instead of 1364.

NOTE: The City of London School for Poor Children was built in 1837 and remodeled in 1896 as mentioned in the Carpenter Memorial by Amos B. Carpenter. However, it was damaged during World War Two. The statue of John Carpenter was damaged and now (Nov. 1998) "resides in a prominent position on a plinth high up on the wall of the School's glassed ceiling atrium standing over the door to the balcony of our Great Hall. In this position 'He' also 'sees' the full splendour of St. Paul's Dome." Per the Head Porter - B. Darling, MISM of City of London School. Located on Queen Victoria
Street, London EC4V 3AL. Mr. Darling was so kind to send a couple of pictures of this remarkable ancestor.
Please note: Most records give the date of the foundation of the School as 1442, but the school was not actually opened until 1837.

COAT OF ARMS:
THE CARPENTER FAMILY OF ENGLAND AND THE UNITED STATES.
By J. Hatton Carpenter.
FROM: Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, Vol. 16 Number 2, April 1925. Page 60-70. Partial excerpt ...
"The family bore arms, which in heraldic parlance reads as follows: "Paly of six, argent and gules, on a chevron azure, 3 cross crosslets or." Motto "Per acuta belli" (through In a the asperities of war). The 3 cross crosslets denote an ancestor in be Crusades or who was a Crusader. ...
In a letter dated 7 August, 1907, from Rev. William Boyd Carpenter, Bishop Ripon, Yorkshire, afterwards a Canon of Westminster and chaplain to the reigning sovereign of England, the writer was informed that he, the Bishop, bore be Hereford Arms, and that Sir Noel Paton explained to him that originally the crest was a round-handled sword, which in drawing became shortened, until nothing but the cross and globe are left beneath it.
These arms were used by John Carpenter, town clerk of London, who died in 1442."
John Boyd Carpenter 1929???-1992.
Archibald Boyd Carpenter 1903???.
William Boyd Carpenter (Rev) brother to Archibald???.
Archibald Boyd Carpenter 1873.
Archibald Boyd Carpenter 1843??.
???

E-MAIL: Wed, 27 Dec 2000
From: "Tony & Gill M Carpenter" <chipps@chipps.screaming.net>
(Tony Carpenter provided the following data).
"The City School Of London" by A.E.Douglas-Smith, that is in my possession.
PART I
THE FOUNDER
C. 1372-1442
CHAPTER I
JOHN CARPENTER
THE date of the foundation of the City of London School is always given as 1442, but the School was not actually opened till 1837.
The explanation of the earlier date is that the City of London School was established as a result of prolonged inquiry into a famous bequest of John Carpenter, a Town Clerk of London who died in 1442, and the eventual
decision of the Corporation of London to apply it to the endowment of a school.
John Stow, in his Survey of London (1598), thus records the nature of the actual bequest:
'He gave tenements to the Citye for the finding and bringing up of foure pooré men's children with meate, drinke, apparell, learning at the schooles in the universities, &c., until they be preferred, and then others in their
places for ever.'
By a tradition dating at latest from 1843, the Captain of the School every year on Prize Day delivers a declamation in the Founder's praise. Apart from vague memories of these speeches, probably most Old Citizens have derived
their knowledge of John Carpenter from casual glances at the statue on Main
Staircase, with Liber Albus in its hands, and the inscription beneath.
Further research on the life of Carpenter remains to be done, and may, it is hoped, eventually be published. The bulk of what is at present known of him is still to be found in the Memoir of the Life and Times of John Carpenter
produced in 1856 by Thomas Brewer, the first School Secretary.
End
Note:- There is another "Carpenters Charity" funded by the Will of William Carpenter 1650. of Pembridge. Tony Carpenter.

E-MAIL: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 From: Twonow@aol.com
To: jrcrin001@cox.net
The following was in the London Encyclopaedia. Thought you might like to have a copy. Tom and Suzette (Carpenter) Galloway.
The following is from The LONDON Encyclopaedia,Edited by Ben Weinreb and Christopher Hibbert, published in 1995 by Macmillan Reference Books, Page 181.
City of London School   Queen Victoria Street, EC4  John Carpenter, Town Clerk of London, who died in 1442, leftproperty in his will to provide income to maintain in perpetuity â0four boys born within the City of London who shall be called in the vulgar tongue' "Carpenter's Children" to assist at divine service in the choir of the [GUILDHALL]chapel aforesaid on festival days, and to study at schools most
convenient for them on ferial days.' For many years these 'Carpenter's children' boarded in a college adjacent to the chapel until this was dissolved by Henry VIII in 1536.For the next three centuries they continued to be housed, fed and clothed bythe Carpenter bequest and educated at various London schools. By the early 19th century the endowment had so increased in value that the CORPORATION OF LONDON,led by Warren Stormes Hale, first Chairman of the Schools Committee, and later LORD MAYOR, decided to build its own school, thereby using the bequest for wider educational purposes. In 1834 an Act of Parliament permitted the establishment of the
City of London School, which thereafter received substantial financial assistance from the Carpenter bequest and still today provides for Carpenter scholars. The school was opened in 1837 on a site in MILK STREET off CHEAPSIDE, but grew so rapidly that in 1883 it moved to buildings on a site onVICTORIA EMBANKMENT. In 1986 it moved again into new buildings on a riverside site on Paul's Walk a quarter of a mile east of BLACKFRIARS BRIDGE. The schoolis governed and financed (with the aid of
the Carpenter bequest) by the CORPORATION OF THE CITY OF LONDON. It is an independent school administered by a Board of Governors appointed by the COURT OF COMMON COUNCIL. In 1991 there were 843 pupils. Distinguished old boys include H.H. Asquith, the prime minister; Lord Evans, the physician; Sir Sidney Lee, the biographer; Arthur Rackham, the artist; Sir Walter Raleigh, the critic; the writers, Kingsley Amis, James Leasor and Julian Barnes; the humorist, Dennis Norden; and the cricketer, J.M. Brearley.

City of London School
At the east end of the Victoria Embankment, east of John Carpenter Street, in
Farringdon Ward Without (P.O. Directory).
Founded in 1835, and erected on the north side of Honey Lane Market, partly in Cheap Ward and partly in Cripplegate Ward Within. Removed to the Embankment, 1878-80.
Part of the income of the school is derived from certain tenements bequeathed by John Carpenter in the reign of Henry V. for the education and maintenance of poor children in schools, etc.
New building designed 1878. Architects, Messrs. Emanuel and Davis.
In Rocque the site is occupied by Alexander's Yard and the wharves, etc., in O.S. by the City of London Gas Works. In Horwood by the New River Office and Yard.

From: British History Online
Source: City of London School. A Dictionary of London, Henry H Harben (1918).URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=1909
Date: 17/11/2004
© Copyright 2003 University of London & History of Parliament Trust

From: "Tim Stowell" <tstowell@chattanooga.net>
To: <carpenter@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:05 AM
Subject: [CARPENTER] John Carpenter - bio
JOHN CARPENTER (ca 1370-ca 1441) town clerk of London, son of Richard
Carpenter, a citizen of London, and Christina, his wife, was probably born
about 1370, and educated for the profession of law.

On 20 April 1417 he was chosen town clerk or common clerk of the city,
after having held an inferior post in the town clerk's office for some
years previously. Carpenter was well acquainted with John Marchaunt, his
predecessor, and was one of the executors of Marchaunt's will in 1421.

As town clerk Carpenter frequently addressed letters to Henry V on behalf
of the corporation, and very soon after his appointment began a compilation
of the laws, customs, privileges, and usages of the city, extracted from
the archives of the corporation. This important work, which was entitled
the "Liber Albus," was completed in November, 1419, and was printed from
the Guildhall manuscript for the first time in the Rolls Series in 1859.

Carpenter was the intimate friend of the far-famed Sir Richard Whittington,
who was lord mayor for the third time in 1419, and as one of the executors
of Whittington's will was busily employed in 1423 and the following years
in carrying out Whittington's charitable bequests.

On 23 Feb. 1431 Carpenter and his wife, whose Christian name was Katharine,
received from the corporation an eighty years' lease of property in St.
Peter, Cornhill, at a nominal rental; on 20 Nov. 1436 he was elected one of
the representatives of the city in Parliament; on 14 Dec. following he was
granted a patent of exemption from all summonses to serve on juries or to
perform other petty municipal duties.

In 1438 Carpenter resigned the town clerkship; during his twenty-one years
of office he was sometimes styled 'secretary,' a designation which no other
town clerk is known to have borne.

On 26 Sept. 1439 Carpenter was re-elected member of Parliament for the
city; but he had now resolved to retire from public life.

On 3 Dec. following he obtained from Henry VI letters patent exempting him
from all military and civil duties. He was thus relieved of the necessity
of attending Parliament and of receiving the honour of knighthood.

On 10 June 1440 the mayor and aldermen voted Carpenter a gratuity of twenty marks, and in 1441 he defended the sheriffs in a lawsuit preferred against them by the dean of the collegiate church of St. Martin-le-Grand.

In the same year Carpenter, cojointly with another John Carpenter,
afterwards bishop of Worcester, and John Somerset, chronicler of the
exchequer, received from the crown a grant of the manor of Theobalds in
Cheshunt, Hertfordshire.

He probably died in 1441. On 8 March of that year Carpenter drew up a will
disposing of his personal property, and a copy of this document is still
extant. From it we learn that Carpenter lived in the parish of St. Peter,
Cornhill, in whose church he desired to be buried.

He left large sums of money, together with his jewels and household
furniture, to his wife, and similar gifts to his brothers, Robert and John,
and their children.

To the religious foundations in and near London he also bequeathed gifts of
money, and the terms of his bequest indicate that he was a lay brother of
the convent of the Charterhouse, London, and of the fraternity of the sixty
priests of London.

To his friends Reginald Pecock, William Clewe, John Carpenter, bishop of
Worcester and other ecclesiastics, he left most of his books, which
included Richard de Bury's 'Philobiblon' and some of Aristotle's works
translated into Latin.

Of his landed property no account is extant, and no mention is made of it
in the will that now survives. But he undoubtedly owned large estates in
the city, and made a careful disposition of them.

Stow states in his 'Survey of London,' p. 110, that Carpenter 'gave
tenements to the citye for the finding and bringing up of foure poor men's
children with meat, drink, apparell, learning at the schooles in the
universities, &c., until they be professed, and then others in their places
for ever.'

This benefaction was duly executed by the corporation with little change
for nearly four centuries. In the earliest extant book of the city
accounts, dated 1633, a list of Carpenter's lands and tenements appointed
for educational purposes is given, and the rental of the property then
amounted to 49L. 13s. 4d., and the charges upon it to no more than 20L.
13s. 4d.

In the course of the following century the discrepancy between the two
sides of the account increased rapidly. In 1823 the charity commissioners
pointed out that only a fraction of the proceeds of the benefaction was
applied according to the testator's wishes; in 1827 the court of common
council increased the sum to be applied to the education and maintenance of
four poor boys, and in 1833 it was resolved to apply 900L. per annum from
the Carpenter bequest to the foundation and endowment of a new school and
to the establishment of eight Carpenter scholarships for the assistance of
pupils at the school and universities.

This school, called the City of London School, was erected on the site of
Honey Lane Market, and opened in 1837; it was removed in 1883 to the Thames Embankment. A statue of Carpenter as the virtual founder was placed on the principal staircase in the old building, and has been removed to the new. Orations in Carpenter's honour are given by the boys on the annual
speechdays.

[Thomas Brewer's Memoir of the Life and Times of John Carpenter (London,
1856) gives very full particulars.
Carpenter's Liber Albus, edited by H. T. Riley (1859), forms the first volume of the Munimenta Gildhallae Londoniensis in the Rolls Series. Translations of the Norman French passages are given in the third volume of the Munimenta, together with a long letter by Carpenter (dated 20 Feb. 1432, and printed form Guildhall Letterbook K), describing Henry VI's entry into the city of London after his return from France.]

Stow's "Survey of London" -
http://www.londonancestor.com/stow/stow-menu.htm

Richard de Bury's "Philobiblon" -
http://www.informalmusic.com/latinsoc/debury.html

Thomas Brewer's "Memoir of the Life and Times of John Carpenter" -
http://tinyurl.com/3y32hc

Carpenter's "Liber Albus", edited by H. T. Riley (1859) -
http://tinyurl.com/33kynk

One blurb from the White Book translated from Latin:

The book that once was white is white no more;
Made black with grease, and thumb'd its page o'er.
Then, while it still exists, transcribe each page;
Once gone, 'tis lost to every future age.
And if so lost---some fault of ours, 'tis true--
Ah me! thou gem of greatest price, Adieu!

* These lines are inserted in the fly-leaf of the
"Liber Albus," in a hand probably of the earlier
half of the sixteenth century.

Tim Stowell tstowell@chattanooga.net
Chattanooga, TN

MORE:
Folio cclvii b.
Nota delib'a cionem cujus dam scripti per Comitis sam Arundell.
Be it remembered that a certain writing, enclosed in a box, touching an annuity of 100 marks granted by Beatrice, Countess of Arundell, (fn. 9) to Margaret, wife of Rouland Lentehale, Knt, for the lifetime of the said Countess, was delivered by the same to John Hille, the Chamberlain, on the 13th July, 8 Henry V. [A.D 1420], to be delivered by him to the said Margaret, provided the said Rouland and Margaret, or either of them, before the Feast of St Michael [29 Sept.], A.D 1421, rendered the said Beatrice secure in law, as her counsel may direct, for her lifetime in all possessions whatsoever in England and Wales held by her to herself and the heirs of her body and
of the body of Thomas, late Earl of Arundell, and also in her possessions by dower, (fn. 10) failing which the said document is to be returned to her.

From: 'Folios ccli - cclx: Sept 1420 - ', Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: I:
1400-1422 (1909), pp. 243-252. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33697 Date accessed: 22 April 2009.
9 An illegitimate daughter of John, King of Portugal, and wife of Thomas Fitz-Alan, 11th Earl of Arundel, who died without issue in 1415. Among his possessions was Pultney's Inn, in the City, which his widow made over in 1429 to John Carpenter, "
clerk of the commonalty of the City," and others. Hust. Roll 158 (14).

From: 'Folios ccli - cclx: Sept 1420 - ', Calendar of letter-books of the city of London: I: 1400-1422 (1909), pp. 243-252. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33697 Date accessed: 22 April 2009.

John married (MRIN:91) Katherine-14720 . Katherine was born about 1372 in of,, Zeeland, now, Netherlands. She was christened in of, London, Middlesex, England. She died after 31 Mar 1457 in Parish of, St. Peter, Cornhill, England. She was buried before Jun 1458 in Abby of St.Peter, London, Middlesex, England.

WILL: See the copy of her 2 wills in the Carpenter Memorial on pages 20-27.
E-MAIL: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 Bruce Carpenter <carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
While working upon my article on John Carpenter Town Clerk
Of London I reread his wife Kathrine's Will where she states that her
husband's brothers and sisters were buried in St. Martin Outwich church. She
wrote this in 1458. In 1441 both brothers Robert and John were alive. In her
1458 Will she refers to brother Robert Carpenter, but does not refer to him
as deceased. If we assume that Town Clerk's older brother John was deceased in 1458, then there was another, or other brothers, than John and Robert.
In the London Encyclopedia it states the church of St. Martin's Outwich itself
was only built in 1403. Its first patrons were the controlling guild members
of the tailors and linen armourers. In the immediate vicinity was the St.
Anthony's Hospital, a charity and educational establishment supported and
even controlled by the Carpenter family. We can assume from the 1403 date
that the father Richard died after 1403 and that there was another brother
or more alive by 1403 that Robert and John.
BC
E-MAIL: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com>
The following was an interesting surprise discovery that was overlooked previously in my searches
through 1400s English historical documents:
"Letters of denization for Kathrine Carpenter of London, widow, born in Seland."
Seland is otherwise spelled Zeeland. This was from PATENT ROLLS Jan. 20, 1446.
Bruce E. Carpenter.

Last item before I move on wards.

John Carpenter, The Noted Town clerk of London (RIN 89)
He is frequently distinguished in historical documents as "John Carpenter, the younger," "John Carpenter, Junior [incorrectly]," and as "John Carpenter, Jenkin." Jenkin or Jenken is a diminutive of the name John.
-- Note -- This family had French Flemish ancestry in its names. Translations of Jean/Jehan/Jehannes became John in English. Jean & Jehan being the diminutive form became John the younger while some Jehans and all Jehannes became John the elder or rarely John the older. For more details see Jenkin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenkin

Having such names is another indicator that the family spent some time on the Continent before coming to England.

Also later in England, when two people with the same name lived nearby, they used Junior and Senior or Elder to indicate that one was younger or older.

This means a person could be known as a junior the an elder in his life time.

Much later, came the proper name addition of adding Junior (Jr.), II, III, et cetera to a formal birth name.

And by the way, no child to my knowledge was ever born with the legal name of having a subtitle of Sr. It is tradition in American/English society today that allows the father of a same named child to take on Senior. It is an honorary title since there is no formal legal need to change the name. The exception is the business need to distinguish between the two for business purposes.

John R. Carpenter

Update.

—-

Managers of John “Jenkin”, “the Younger” Carpenter,

I am contacting you about this profile: John “Jenkin”, “the Younger” Carpenter

Regarding the article on this John Carpenter (The noted Town Clerk of London), I did a major re-write in 2009 on the article on Wikipedia. See the current version at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carpenter_(town_clerk)
FYI - Reference 2 provides detail why there is TWO Johns in the family. It is a name translation into English and not an age thing.

For general reference purposes on this early Carpenter line, I provide a 6 generation Desc Report starting with John or Jean Le Carpenter b. abt 1303 of De Grand Pont that goes to the William Carpenter of Homme. PLEASE read the notes.

This Modified Ledger Report on line should be considered a Research Report. Read the notes. See: https://carpentercousins.com/Desc-Report.pdf

Sadly way too much material from my old Carpenters' Encyclopedia of Carpenters 2001 (a 2 CD set) was placed on line without the notes. And the notes were critical because much of the older lines contained speculations, especially in connecting the various segments of Carpenters together. Without the notes then you get a different interpretation.

For more on that old CE CD 2001 see: https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Repository:Carpenters%27_Encyclopedia...

I hope this information will be helpful.

Sincerely,

John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
https://carpentercousins.com