Ann (Percy) West - wildly incorrect info on the overview tab

Deleted this from the overview tab:

"The Pumunkey Tribe, federally recognized in 2016, and professional researcher have proven that Col John West d. 1659 was the young son of Cockakeska."

Normally I wouldn't do this, and I don't wish to be hurtful, but this is badly written and wildly incorrect.

Curators, is there a way to lock the overview tab for some profiles? The West-Croshaw profiles have been targets for misinformation and vandalism for a long time now.

Interim Gov. John West d. 1659 (husband of Anne, possibly Anne Percy) is absolutely, positively not the son of the Pamunkey Leader Cockacoeske, known by the English as the "Queen of the Pamunkies." He is two generations too early for that.

Capt. John West

Please, cousins, I'm begging you, be very, very sure you know which John West you are working on--there are so many of them in this family, sometimes two in the same generation.

The _only child_ of interim Gov. John West, Colonel John West (1632–1691), married Unity Croshaw and was known to have had a relationship with Cockacoeske.

Col. John West, II

He had at least four children with Unity Croshaw (four children are mentioned in probate records, and one of the four was also named John West), and he is alleged to be the father of ANOTHER John West, Captain John West, the son of Cockacoeske.

My understanding is that YDNA has proven that the line of Captain John West (son of Cockacoeske) does not match any of the candidates for this West line (there are at least two groups, one claiming descent from Gov. John West, and another claiming descent from his older brother Thomas, 3rd Baron Delaware). But--I've never seen that assertion documented, so I don't know if it's true.

Cockacoeske's son John West has a profile here--hard to tell how much of the mishmash of overview material is correct. There is a link to the West DNA Project on the overview tab, referring to kit number 72690, but there is no kit by that number on the page. The overview tab also cites "Shawnee Heritage" (by Don Greene) which is a HUGE red flag!

"Sonne to the Queen of Pamunkey" John West

This is a historically-significant profile, so I hope the following folks don't mind being tagged in.

I wonder if the Pamunkey currently have a tribal historian who might be willing to be contacted? I'm feeling overwhelmed by the conflicting information on the Pamunkey-Patawomeck side of this extended family, and by how many changes these profiles have gone through in the last couple of years.

Private User

Erica Howton

Erin Ishimoticha

Thanks in advance for your time and care--
Amy

Amy Nordahl Cote

Thank you for clarifying the West’s so straight forwardly!

The Pamunkey tribal historian is Bill Deyo, reachable by email.

I need to add that the wives & children of "Sonne to the Queen of Pamunkey" John West are an issue also.

We know

that her son had a wife who ran away. I am unclear on the evidence supporting 2nd wife and children.

I would love help rewriting overviews so they’re more coherent and citation supported.

On a rewrite sometimes I copy / paste “old” overview to an attached text document so no one’s contribution gets lost.

Oh, I LOVE that solution to rewriting the overview tab!

Bill Deyo is the Patawomeck tribal historian, but I've been thinking of writing him, too--about this line as well as the Pettus family that also connects to the big Cockacoeske--Pocahontas tree. (I'm a West-Croshaw-Fox descendant and a Pettus descendant.)

The Pamunkey require "social contact" as well as Pamunkey ancestry (ancestry and/or blood quantum are not enough--you need to be known to them). More info here:

http://pamunkey.org/tribal-office/membership/

The Patawomeck require that your ancestors were part of the community as late as the 20th century:

Your family must be listed on the 1860 census of the White Oak area of Stafford County or closely surrounding area (such as the city of Fredericksburg or Pasapatanzy in King George
Your family must have interacted with the White Oak or closely surrounding area in the 20th century.

http://patawomeckindiantribeofvirginia.org/ct-menu-item-8

It is their prerogative as sovereign nations to set whatever membership standards they choose. Not being eligible for membership does not mean, necessarily, that you don't have Pamunkey or Patawomeck ancestry.

Private User Does your post https://www.geni.com/discussions/184942?msg=1237362 refer to the son of Cockacoeske? It doesn’t sound like it?

Amy - I think we should try a draft for the sonne from Records, with his family.

Amy

There’s another academic & historian to contact for a view on this family

https://libres.uncg.edu/ir/uncp/clist.aspx?id=4856

https://www.uncp.edu/profiles/dr-jay-hansford-c-vest-monacan

“He suggests instead, that the story of a princess daughter of Opechancanough who married a son of a Cavalier family fits neatly into the the life Cockacoeske. He writes that she was the daughter of his (Opechancanough) old age, and she was the woman who had a liaison with Calalierish Colonel John West. In about 1656 she gave birth to a son who was called called Captain John West. [3] ”

[3] Vest, Jay Hansford C. “Mormons and Indians in Central Virginia: J. Golden Kimball and the Mason Family's Native American Origins.” Journal of Mormon History, vol. 40, no. 3, 2014, pp. 127–154. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/24243806.

Excellent, thanks.

I hope we can pin down what's been learned about the YDNA of Cockacoeske's son, if anything--I was unable to find anything on the kit mentioned in the overview tab, at least not at the West DNA Project results page.

http://web.utk.edu/~corn/westdna/west5.htm

or at the page showing the three candidate lines for De La Warr West DNA (none of these are from Cockacoeske's son--these are [allegedly] from
Gov. John West,
his brother Thomas West, 3rd Baron De La Warr,
and a more distant West ancestor, Thomas de West c1300).

http://web.utk.edu/~corn/westdna/delaware.htm

Jason,

On this discussion, let’s stay focused on the West’s, they are very confusing.

———

I do not think there is Y DNA testing from Sonne John West - at least, I didn’t see it in details of Group 7b of the DNA study Page. So perhaps that should just be a reference to the study ? Unless I’m missing something ?

———
There’s a whole data dump of notes here

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/melungeon/27981/

Indian son of Col John West of Jamestown Va. His mother was CockaCoeskie, who the English called the Queen of the Pamunkey. CockaCoeskie was the neice of Powhatten, and the ruler of the Powhatten Confederecy during Bacon,' Rebellion. When CockaCoeskie sighned the Treaty of Bacon's Rebellion, she had her son Capt. John West with her to act as her interpreter, and he also sighned the treaty. He was 20 years old at the time. Then he seemed to dissappear. 17 years later (in 1690) I found a "John West, Indian" listed in the will of John Fleming in Old Albermerle, North Carolina. This area is less than 40 miles from Jamestown, and it is known that many of the refugees from Bacon's Rebellion fled to North Carolina. .

In 1692 in Pasquotank Precinct, AlbemarleDist., NC, the inventory of GEORGE FLEMING'S estate, "JOHN WEST, INDIAN" received a payment.

According to Ray Isbel’s notes on https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/136257324/john-west

Maj. John West, son of Col. John West II and Cockacoeske, and half-brother of the elder John West III above, was also called Capt. John West and Indian John West. Like the elder John West III, he was a large landowner.

In his will, he bequeathed 500 acres "at Pamunky" to his son John West (IV) after Elizabeth Turley's death.

This is believed to be the original 500 acres of land for which his father Col. John West II's first cousin Col. "Toby West" (Totopotomoi) had a patent. (Toby West was the son of Gov. John West's brother Thomas West, lord Delaware, and "Rachel" Powhattan.) The Toby West tract was later taken up by Col. Joseph Crowshaw when the Indians were dispossessed, and as his daughter Unity/Ursula Crowshaw married Col. John West II, the latter passed it to his son by Cockacoeske who was Totopotomoi's widow also.

——-

I believe “Sonne John West” has been conflated with this Major John West, of Stafford County, Gent.

And I am unclear on Major’s parents (If they are known at all).

Major John West of Stafford is group 7b

http://web.utk.edu/~corn/westdna/west5.htm#FG7

W108 was added to this group on 28 Octbober 2006. He matches W19 on 25 of 25 markers. The oldest ancestor of W108 is "Major" John West who was born in Virginia about 1650. John married first Susannah (Sarah) PEARSON, and second to Elizabeth Simmes TURLEY. "Major" John WEST died in Stafford County, Virginia, and his will was probated on 13 February 1716 (OS)/1717 (NS). This is a very exciting match for Family group 7. They are exploring the possibility that Thomas WEST who married Sarah TRAMMEL is a grandson of John WEST b 1650.

From https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/h/a/r/Pamela-Hart-Garden-City/WEBSITE... (dead link)

The four children I have listed for John West the Indian & Elizabeth Rose are (1) Thomas West b. NC d. 1800 Bertie Co. NC (2) Robert West (3) Benjamin West (4) Richard West.

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Who, then, is this John West, of Wayne County

From http://files.usgwarchives.net/nc/wayne/wills/west1702gwl.txt

1794 July

John West, Elizabeth (wife); Charles, Tart, Rachel, Sarah, Alice, Mary (children); Temple and Charles West (grandchildren)

Additional Comments: Grimes' Supplemental Abstracts of NC Wills Prepared by Fred A. Olds, 1925

The “John West” married to Elizabeth Rose has nothing to do with the Virginia West’s or the son of Cockacoeske. Yet another case of same-name-wrong-person. There is no mention of the Pamunkey John West after his mother’s death,and no evidence that he had any wife other than the one who left him or any children.

I’ve separated out:

Maj. John “Indian” West

John West, of Wayne County

And updated "Sonne to the Queen of Pamunkey" John West

The old notes are attached to him here:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000081110755020&

Do we want to move him over as a son of Col. John West, II

What was the relationship of Elizabeth Rose to Maj. John “Indian” West ? She had a different surname.

And back to Anne West

Notes give her only one child, Col John West.

But she has three more sons attached

Thomas West

Anthony West, of Northampton County

Matthew West, of Lynn & Newport

“Governor John West and Ann, his wife, had an only child, John West, Junior, mentioned in act of March 160?, as the only survivor (in Virginia) of the noble family of West; of him more subsequently."

More children are shown above...needs further research, though perhaps some were the children of John and his 2nd wife?...”

(From the profile for Capt. John West)

Robert West, MP

Is listed as the father of Anthony West at this site

https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=rednlh&id...

Which cannot be correct, as Anthony was born 1601 and “father” Robert died 1594.

I’m spinning off the grouping.

Somebody else forget there's this big honking Chesapeake Bay between Northampton County and the rest of Virginia?

Anthony West is believed to have immigrated to Virginia twice, once as an indentured servant and once as a chirurgeon with a wife and children. The second time, he sank his roots into the Eastern Shore.

He is still a no-match to any other West family group.

It *is* possible there were two coincidental Anthony Wests and the original indentured servant just vanished into the general population. But Anthony West the chirurgeon with wife and children is reasonably well documented from London to Jamestown to the Eastern Shore.

People who settled on the Eastern Shore only left if they had serious business elsewhere (merchants, burgesses, etc) or they were made to feel very unwelcome (Puritans, Quakers, etc). In the latter case most of them just beat feet up the Eastern Shore into Maryland (Somerset County and environs), where nobody would bother them. (A few dared the crossing of the always-treacherous Bay for the welcome they were sure to find at West River in Anne Arundel County. But even they didn't make a routine commute of it.)

Shanks mare is the oldest method of getting around, and is how all the hominids got out of Africa to every corner of continental Eurasia. But once they reached the Big Waters, they had to figure out a way around (took them a *very* long time to find the Beringia land bridge) or develop the technology to build boats (which took the Polynesians even longer).

Even on horseback a person can only travel 20-25 miles a day, and that's assuming there are roads of some kind.