Arent A. Bradt, 'de Noorman' - Not Norwegian

“Translated: "Those who claim that Albert and Arents came from Fredrikstad in Norway must prove this (they have the burden of proof). In my opinion when a young man gets married in the town Stade (in Holland) and says he's form Fridrichstadt, then the city (of his birth) should be identified with the city just north of Stade. In the same area, so to speak."”

So it sounds like he & Albert Andriessen Bradt, 'de Noorman' need to be given NN parents.

That is - their parents are OK but not the grandparents (who is their son). I disconnected

Thanks the loop was sending me loopy.

I agree that unless we can find his or Albert's marriage banns, which sometimes name the parents, the brothers should have NN parents with RL

I think the parents are good actually - see the curator note. And where they are actually from.

I'm going to need some convincing.
The mother is showing as Norwegian.
The father died in upstate New York in 1616, possibly making him the first European to die in that state, predating the foundation of the colony even.

I can accept that the father's first name was some variant of Andries given the brother's patronym and a vague DOB could be estimated but everything else i see in his profile look like unsupported assumptions.

The mother's first name is supported circumstantially in line with the names of the eldest daughter of each brother as per Dutch custom but everything else is ...

Mother, Aeffie (Eva) Kinetis
All her data might be correct but i wouldn't bet folding money on it

The mother has a sister and a brother, both with the same name. Which inspires confidence :D

@I just realized that I never posted my detailed article "Albert Andriessen (Brat)..."
that would explain a lot of issues I will do that shortly. HOwever I am not sure what "text" you are referring to.
The Van Rensselaer Manuscripts refers to "Albert Andriessen van Frederikstad 26 Aug. 1636 (in Amsterdam) and 3 Oct. 1636, and says his brother Arent Andriessen de Noorman once. On p. 558 is written "Albert de Noorman sent an account..." IThe NOTE on p.676 says "early records show his usual appellation of Albert ANdriessen Noorman..."
In my article I am explaining the three different "Frederickstadt" It seem logical that Albert originate from Norway.

Oh, just to add there is no documentation for mother Eva Kinetis /Kenute. It is likely however that ALbert's mother was Aeffie or Aefge because he names his first daughter such.

The information needed should be in the New York State Library located in Albany, NY.

Albert and Arents last name was spelt Bratt. My book on Hornbeck hunting, by Shirley Hornbeck, states that Albert Andriese Bratt was born in 1600 in Norway, and his wife, Annette Barentse Van Rymers was born in Norway. Annette's dad was Pieter Jacobsen Van Rynsburg born in Norway, and her mom was Oysje Barents Pieters born in Norway.

Barbara Boram I look forward to reading your article, when i said "The About text..." I am referring to the portion of each profile page which is available for free entry of text and is referred to as the About section.

Norvelle Lopienski unless Hornbeck is citing primary sources or reliable secondary ones then what she has published doesn't actually matter. Would you perhaps be able to scan the relevant page so we can all see what she has to say?

"Annette Barentse Van Rymers ... dad was Pieter Jacobsen Van Rynsburg", apart from Rymers and Rynsburg being quite dissimilar words Annette's patronym should be Pieterse if her father is Pieter. Having a patronym of Barentse is very strong evidence that Pieter is not her father, regardless of whether their last names can be interpreted as a match.

"Oysje Barents Pieters" is just all around weird. Oysje is not a name I recognise, which I guess could be supportive of the Norwegian-ness of this woman. Having two patronyms is not impossible but it's uncommon and more suggestive of researchers at some point mis-merging two separate identifies into one composite ancestor. Double patronyms should be a huge red flag to anyone working this era/culture.

I am fine with these people being Norwegian, if that is the case, but if so then the statement of expert opinion, which Erica has quoted above, that this is incorrect will need to be replaced with the Norwegian evidence.

At the moment we have a disconnect where some of the profiles data fields are listing them as Norwegians but then anyone taking the time to read the profile is told that they are not Norwegians.

Marriage banns of Albert Andriessen Bradt, 'de Noorman' and Annetie Barentse van Rottmers https://archief.amsterdam/indexen/ondertrouwregisters_1565-1811/zoe... bottom right of page.

Script is not the best, and i'm out of practice reading it, so i'm not seeing anything useful beyond what we already know.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bradt-2

Hi have just posted the 2012 article "Albert Andreissen (Brat) ab. 1607 - said 7 June 1686 Updates 2012" on rootsweb.com -message boards- Bradt family- It is very detailed, but has recorded "Norman" for Albert and brother Arent.

Would you be able to post a link please? I am not familiar with thr rootsweb system

I suspect that the appellation of "de Noorman" stems not from a Norwegian ancestry but from the family having lived at Noormanskill [sp], which is named for Dirck de Noorman

The Noormanskill you're pointing to is (or was) in Kings County (which is to say Brooklyn) not Albany County, some 150 miles north.

The tradition remains that the Albany County Bradts were the source of the Normanskill's name.

Hi the link actually goes to ancestry. com

https://www.ancestry.com/boards/surnames.bradt/mb.ashx

Bradt Y-DNA project - these Bratt descendants do not match actual Norwegian lines as far as we know
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bradt?iframe=yresults

From notes on the profile
Arent, possible father of Andries Bradt?

Norway's most competent genealogist Tore Vigerust says that there is no evidence that the Andries Bradt had anything to do with Norway:

http://da2.uib.no/cgi-win/WebDebatt.exe?slag=listinnlegg&debatt...

Another important discussion thread about Andries Bratt who was Dutch/German:

http://da2.uib.no/cgi-win/WebDebatt.exe?slag=listinnlegg&debatt...

The participants are leading genealogists.

They say that Andries Bradt who has thousands of descendants in the US is extremely unlikely to have any connection to Norway and the Norwegian Bratt-families.

The idea of a connection comes from this book: Scandinavian immigrants in New York 1630-1671 by John O. Evjen published 1916 - it seems to be pure guesswork ... The one reference to FamilySearch is (rightly) mocked as silly - anyone can post anything there and it should never be used as a source, only as ideas of where to search further.

Tore Hermundsson Vigerust, Oslo gamleby, 7.4.2009 00:19 (9) "De som hevder at Albert og Arent kom fra Fredrikstad / Norge har bevisbyrden. For min del vil jeg mene at når en ung mann gifter seg i byen Stade og oppgir å komme fra Fridrichstadt, skal byen identifiseres med den av samme navn som ligger litt nord for Stade. I samme område, så og si."

Translated: "Those who claim that Albert and Arents came from Fredrikstad in Norway must prove this (they have the burden of proof). In my opinion when a young man gets married in the town Stade (in Holland) and says he's form Fridrichstadt, then the city (of his birth) should be identified with the city just north of Stade. In the same area, so to speak." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrichstadt

UPDATED links to the forum threads:
https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/104230-18488-albert-andriesen-br...

https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/154172-68810-andries-bratt-of-fr...

The given links to http da2 ..... arebo longer available. Arent Andriessen de Noorman is rec. as brother of Albert as mentioned before. There are 3 Frederickstadt for that time. THe one in Norway has no baptismal records before 1717. One can not have a burden of proof if there are no existing documents, it remains the origin can only be surmised.

Barbara there are updated links to the forum threads, se my comment above.

Bradt,Klerk,Kayser,Motz,Serba.These are surnames all connected by Ydna
I1-M253>FGC31730 all connected around 600 AD in Northern Germany. Some are more closerly related around 1300s like Bradt and Serba by dating mutations on are Y line.They are just a couple of generations extended family Serba genealogy goes to 1600s Czechia.(with some new SNP's formed in the meantime)Bradts goes back to 1600s Netherlands? Or northern Germany and we have other cousin who shared a distant Ydna with Bradt like Motz related around 10th to 12th century and Kayser related to Bradts around 8th to 10th century and like Klerk who is related 6th to 7th century and Klerk still live in the Netherlands.My own line that left prior to Klerk and Bradt connection probably with the Germanic migrations to a.o Baden-Württemberg