Princess Sofia von Hoya, a Princess of Polotsk and Countess of Hoya - The Style: Princess of Polotsk and Countess von Hoya Sofia von Hoya

Started by Christina Giscombe on Wednesday, June 22, 2022
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Showing all 15 posts

I was wondering why this person is designated a 'Princess'. Is she royalty? Is it a hereditary title, or is it honorary?

I understand she was given a fief.

Princess Sofia von Hoya, a Princess of Polotsk and Countess of Hoya is my 16th great grandmother.
You
→ Elza Dzelvite (Grahpe,Grāpe)
your mother → Jahn Grahpe
her father → Baron Arnold Julius von Vietinghoff-Riesch
his father → Juliane Charlotte Lulla von Vietinghoff
his mother → Helene Gertrude von Krüdener
her mother → Gustav Georg von Völckersahm
her father → Sophia Elisabeth von Mengden
his mother → ObtLt., Frhr Magnus Gustav von Mengden, von Altenwoga
her father → Gustav v. Mengden Frhr. v. Altenwoga
his father → Gertrud von Mengden Frfr. von Altenwoga
his mother → Jürgen von Rosen
her father → Kersten von Rosen
his father → Kersten III von Rosen auf Hochenrosen
his father → Jürgen l von Rosen
his father → N.N. von Tiesenhausen
his mother → Bartholomeus von Tiesenhausen, of Kokenhausen
her father → Johann von Tiesenhausen
his father → Princess Sofia von Hoya, a Princess of Polotsk and Countess of Hoya
his mother

Princess Sofia von Hoya is my 19 th Great Grand mother.

She's my 18th g-g-m via the Tiesenhausen line. Seems to have been the daughter of the King of Kokenese. Oh well, I guess a tiny realm is better than nothing!

It might be decision that english speakers has made to this profile. She has none titles in Finnish. Etymology for Prince/ss From Anglo-Norman, from Old French prince, from Latin prīnceps (“first head”), from prīmus (“first”) + capiō (“seize, take”). Doublet of princeps. That could be the closest word as there are no other english word for Ruhtinaz, Ruhtinas nor Ruhtinatar.

Saga, thanks! The etymology is interesting to know.

https://sukuajahistoriaa.blogspot.com/2016/02/tiesenhausenin-alkula...
Here are some detalji about these people, nice old drawings and pictures from that area.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafschaft_Hoya
Also here, there are more info in german language, then in english (just use translator if it is not your language :) ) Have a nice summer all, Saga

Dear Ladies, you are obviously unaware of titles history, and probably unaware of history of these lands.
Saga, has she titles in Finnish or has not - it does not matter at all, because Sofia was not Finnish. Finnish people as an ethnic unity began its formation only in early 19th c. (Fennoman movement). So Finnish language and Sofia von Hoya are like Margareth Thatcher and a Norman Conquest - things from different times.
Prince is a simple translation of the Russian title Князь (presumably of Polotsk as Ingrida wrote) - Kniaz (if you cannot read Russian letters). So this is because there are some thoughts that her father was Kniaz of Polotsk (however thoughts without any strong historical basis). Kniaz is not a heir of King. Kniaz comes from German Konung. So it is King himself. However some Kniazs could make themselves higher than other - and self-proclaim Veliky Kniaz - so as Great Konung - it is like your undestanding of a King. And somebody having power over several Kings - is a Tzar (from Csar / Cesar) or, if translated, Emperor.
Regarding any Latgal language - it is also not conserved in any archive that Latgals or Liivs or Curshes had had writing systems at that times, or feudal hierarchy no more. Ruhtinaz, Ruhtinas nor Ruhtinatar - these words were unfamiliar to heads of German garrisons of these times. As colonization of these are came from Nothern Germany, I suppose all governance of these lands was in hands of German people - so Sofia is claimed to be also a daughter of Graf Hoya (or Count in English). Hoya is a holding near Nienburg, where Tiesenhusen family came from.

@Александр Устинов I am talking about Geni profile. That's what the discussion is about. As Geni uses different language tabs, which I referred Aleksanteri Ustinov - there are different pages and different titles depending the language that you are using. The view is different for different languages.

Your behavior is very arrogant. You don't know who is first degree scholar here - It seem to be obvious that you are not, so let me educate you a bit, as I am.

Etymology for Prince does not have anything to do with russian language, I explained etymology for that word already, which you would have understood if understanding anything from that subject.

The whole subject of church slavonic language, or the arrival of slavs to Finno-Ugric areas is another discussion so I wont go there, but the literary language of modern russian began to take shape in the 18th and 19th centuries. The russian language has a huge number of loanwords, also from old Germanic and Baltic Fennic languages spoken around Baltic Sea.

The ancient Germanic word Druhtinas- Ruhtinas, on the other hand, existed before russian language was even in its cradle, meaning someone more powerful than a king.

The word "Knjaz" is not of russian origins :) It is a a variant of the ancient Germanic word "kuniaz", the variant of which in Finnish is still nearest to original word with: Kuningas. It was used in the areas where they spoke Baltic Finnic languages.

Principality of Koknese was a small vassal state on the right bank of the Daugava River in ancient Livonia (modern Latvia) during the Middle Ages. The main language was Livonian. Livonian was an old Finnic language which unfortunately began to die out during the Soviet Union. Fortunately, the language has been revived. The languages ​​of the neighboring regions were also increasingly present along with the Orthodox religion

This is a Genealogy platform, so it would be advisable not to distort Finlands history here. There should be no need for it? I understand that Russia has history of distorting history, but there is no need for it in Genealogy platform.

Why are you speaking about Soviet era? Polotsk was a Slavonic Княжество - in English Principality. So the head of Polotsk was a Kniaz. I agree that the word Kuningas has the same origin, but Livi (Livonians) being however Finnish language group people, do not take part of Finland, and had never taken part. So, speaking about Kniaz of Polotsk, I do not distort Finland history. Finland as a national state and Finnish as a modern language with writing system started with Fennoman movement. Before 1820 there was Old Finnish language since the middle of 16 century. So all hypotheses that Sofia von Hoya could belong somehow to Livonians or Finnish people and held respective titles (if they would exist) is biased. I use Slavonic term Kniaz just in reference with her ' title ' Princess of Polotsk. However, I would like if you tell what ethnos lived in Polotsk in 13 century. I consider the hypothesis of Sofia's links with Polotsk as biased, considering the supposition of her German origin as more backed. So I would prefer to use the term Grafin von Hoya, than any other titles (however Graf would be only her father, not husband who was only a vogt). But if Prince/Kniaz title hypothesis exists (based on Slavonic manuscripts), let it be so. And my main idea for Christina was that Prince title is first of all alleged, not proven, and Prince means the head of state (one of states which started to multiply in the 13th c. due to feudal disintegration of Kievan Rus of that time). No other princes than Slavonic existed in the region, otherwise please give a reference.

There is not any kind of reference here Sofia "being a Finn"?? or belonging to Finland. I don't know how many times it must be explained for you, as I already said, that subject was only about the language tabs of the Geni - and how the name appears here for different users, using different languages.

After that I only answered your arguments, which were a bit arrogant and rude. I also explained the word Ruhtinas that you stated "unfamiliar to heads of German garrisons", I have never stated they used word Ruhtinas there in that time. I do not believe the old word itself was unknown to germans though. Ruhtinas would be the title used in Finnish tab in Geni for Wetseke of Koknese, not her daughter nor granddaughter. At finnish tab page the title for female would be Ruhtinatar, maybe for Wetsekes daughter and kreivitär for Sofia von Hoya, but we have left finnish language tab empty for Wetseke, Sophia and Sofia. So - You misunderstood badly, even after explaining now twice, and you must see there are different titles in different languages.

Also you shouldn't confuse fennomania with Finlands history, apparently you need to be educated about that too.

Finland has been inhabited since the end of the ice age approx. 11,000 years ago. Finland's archaeological golden age is still ahead and there are currently so many discoveries that there is a queue to investigate them.

As for the language, one cannot be certain; the current theory is that Baltic Sea Finns later developed in Northern Estonia into Late Finnish, where a distinctive material culture developed continuously. The Finnish language from there spread to the south-west and west coast of Finland in the older Roman Iron Age, where there was already an earlier Baltic Finn settlement.

Speakers of many Finnish family languages ​​that have since disappeared, have arrived Finland during the Bronze Age.

Based on the genetic paternal lines, it shows that the majority of the ancestors of the Sámi people who migrated to Southern Finland around 1600 or 1500 years BCE did not move elsewhere, but instead changed their language to Baltic Finnic.

Next, the culture first spread to the Kokemäenjoki estuary and from there inland to Häme and east all the way to Karelia and Vepsänmaa. After ending up in Karelia in the 6th–7th centuries, the internal unity of the Baltic Finns had disappeared and the connections between the more distant parts of the culture and language weakened and separated into their own versions,

Finnish material culture became independent from this broader Baltic Sea Finns culture in the 6th–7th centuries, and by the turn of the 8th century, the metal object culture that prevailed in Finland, especially women's jewelry and different types of weapons, had developed into its own and had indigenous features more abundantly than ever before. The aim of this development is clearly to express a special _Finnish identity_, which was born from the image of a common origin and mutual similarity. Broadly speaking, the same time can be regarded as the birth of the independent Finnish language, although its prehistory, like other Finnic languages ​​in the Baltic Sea, extends far into the past.

The first mention of the Finns, most probably the Sámi, under the name fenni can be found in the Roman senator and historian Tacitus' work Germania, completed in 98. In the Widsith collection of poems written in the 5th–6th centuries, it is mentioned that a person named Cælic ruled the Finns (Finnum). During the Crusades, Finns are mentioned in a letter known as Gravis admodum drawn up by Pope Alexander III in 1171 or 1172.

In addition to the Finns, many early historical sources have also written about other Finnish tribes, such as the Hämäläiset, Karjalaiset. The Hämäläiset (Yem) are mentioned for the first time in Novgorod's first chronicle around the year 1042, and the Karelians are mentioned in the letter 590, written approximately between the 1060s and 1080s.

About twenty sources concerning Finland and Finns are known from the 12th century. About half of these were born in the Papal Curia and the rest mainly in the Novgorod chronicles. Also Al Idrisi wrote about Finland.

This contemporary information is supplemented by sources written in the 13th and 14th centuries, such as the Legend of St. Eerik, the Legend of St. Henrik, and the Chronicle of Eerikinkronikka. About two hundred written sources about Finland are known from the 13th century.

There is also information about Kvenland that was partly in Finlands area, Kainuu in Icelandic sagas.

More interesting info about Finland here in old map: Carta marina et descriptio septentrionalium terrarum (Latin for Marine map and description of the Northern lands; commonly Abbreviated Carta marina) is the first map of the Nordic countries to give details and place names, created by Swedish ecclesiastic Olaus Magnus and initially published in 1539. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carta_marina

Towards the end of 12th century, the heathen parts of Europe were confined exclusively to the lands situated on the east coast of the Baltic Sea, inhabited by the Baltic and Finnish peoples – from the Vistula estuary to Finland. Term Livonia collectively describes the area of modern Latvia and Estonia. In German historiography there is an analogous term ‘Alt-Livland’ to describe a loose federation of areas under the bishops’ rule. Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order. ‘Alt-Livland’s’ end is marked by the first Livonian War and secularization of the Livonian branch of the Teutonic Order.

The knighthoods together ruled the region of Livonia, Courland and Saaremaa, i.e. roughly the area corresponding to present-day Latvia and southern Estonia.

This relatively small area was inhabited by a mosaic of Baltic peoples (Latgalians, Semigallians, Selonians), Finno-Ugric Livonians and ancestors of Estonians as well as inhabitants of Courland with disputable ethnogenesis.

None of these ethnic groups managed to found their own state before the beginning of the 13th century), only small local communities – ruled by so-called ‘seniores’, i.e. local influential persons existed. The land was very loosely dependent from neighbouring Ruthenian principalities – Duchy of Polotsk, Duchy of Pskov and Duchy of Novgorod.

It has been unclear if there are any reliable primary sources for Wetsekes father. Father might be either Vsevolod Glebovits of Polotsk or Boris Davidovits, Prince of Polotsk. Do you have primary sources?

The Sophia of Kokenhusen, like her father, was left without sons. He had one daughter from his second marriage, the daughter was named Sofia according to her mother. Johannes de Thisenhusen, a vassal of the archbishop of Riga, a knight and noble lord, married the heiress, whose father was a German-born progenitor of the Tiesenhausen noble family. Johannes, or Hans, died a martyr's death in a battle against pagan Lithuanians. He is buried in Falckenau Abbey. Sofia was born a.1240 from the second marriage of Bernardus von Hoya. Kokenhusen was given to him, Bernardus was also a knight, son of Stumpenhausen and Count Hoya. .

As Sofia was daughter of Van Hoya, her title would have been probably Gräfin (german)countess, if any. I have not seen her specific title in any primary sources.

.

Hi Saga Sanna,

Well researched and well written,
thank you for a very comprehensive history lesson.
cheers,
Markku

Seconded! Thanks, too Alexander.

Like many Finns, the family goes back many generations. People have a false assumption that the noble families must have been Swedes because they were knighted by the Vasan empire (which included Finland) and acquired Swedish language titles. Often they would be named in retrospect. But many were pure Finnish stock, such as Horn, Kurki, Stalarm, Lejonas, Spara, etc., I was a little surprised though, to go back several generations to discovered they all seemed to have come from within the same 50 square kilometres in SW Finland, albeit with little consanguinity, other than one or two having a third great-grandparent the same as their spouse.

EXCEPT...for the Baltic German line, who appeared at the sixth generation, 150 km away, in Ulvila (near Pori) as a result of the Thirty Year's War 1618 - 1648. These forefathers include Monckhoven (actually from Antwerp) together with Von Grothusen, Von Jordan and Eneskjold (who were Swedish originally). They married into each other's families, thus linking with Europe's aristocracy (making me 14th cousin of Queen Elizabeth II* thanks to the Von Donhoffs) and nine straight lines of von Tiesenhusens. These were centred around what today is north Germany, the old Prussia, Silesia, Pomerania and in particular, the area that today is known as Latvia and Estonia.

'Princess' Sophia of Hoya, is one of them, and seems to have quite a few Finnish descendants.

*How weird is that.

Princess Sofia von Hoya is my 19th great grandmother

Showing all 15 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion